Designer News trolls get checked by HUGE names in the design community (twitter.com)
over 5 years ago from Nic Trent, Lead Designer
over 5 years ago from Nic Trent, Lead Designer
This is click bait. Who gives a shit.
Are you saying the OP posted this as a form of click-bait to boost karma? I could see your point if this is what you mean. The original thread is here... the Twitter steam is there... what is the real benefit of this thread then?
Twitter paid me. Full disclosure.
It's just worthless. I'm regretting typing this as I type it because its not worth my time. Yet I still type it.
As someone who's been a part of a LOT of different communities - both public and private... it's inevitable. There will always be friction at some point. People will always have their own opinions.
Debate is healthy... discussing things is great. The problem we run into over and over again is when people basically say "this place sucks" or "these people are dumb" and bolt. There's too few people who want to put forth the energy to have the debate, to take time to correct bad opinions... and instead choose to simply dismiss people and move on.
Were a few comments in the thread pretty narrow-minded and crappy? Absolutely. Was it right to label a community participating in the thread as "dumb"? No. Was it any benefit for others to then pile on with completely unproductive comments about how crap the DN site is and start making fun of participants in a way where they come off as "better"... Absolutely not.
My disappointment was mostly from the standpoint that Dann preaches support and community all the time with Epicurrence... and in the end I saw a few in that community acting pretty entitled and condescending. Especially when there were people in the DN community who were doing the right thing and trying to educate.
I don't think Dann's intent was actually bad at all. He's made recent posts about how toxic the community can be... but people look up to him... and sadly took his criticism (and example) of how as a design community we can be pretty crappy toward one another as an excuse to pile on. I'm positive it wasn't his intent, but it was the result. With "fame" comes responsibility.
See Joshua Turner's comment below; this is beyond healthy debate.
Actually, looking through it... the debate was pretty healthy until the bit at the very end where a couple of people lost focus in the moment.
People will have different opinions. That in itself is not toxic. Having disagreement is not toxic. Name-calling and stuff... yes. I'll take care of those posts. To be fair, it would be a valid point to argue that trolling is, by nature, toxic...
Thanks for bringing it to my attention (I was away when that post dropped, never saw it until now).
And people... PLEASE FLAG STUFF if you see issues like this so we can evaluate and intervene as necessary.
I generally only flag posts when it appears to be spam and should be removed. I don't think people's opinions should be removed from the discussion, but it seems that whatever is the most polarizing always appears at the top.
At one point I was against implementing a down-voting mechanism, but I've done a 180 and think downvoting is a feature this community needs.
As you mentioned, I don't think discourse itself is toxic, but the problem I see over and over again is that these long polarizing discussions make it to the top of these threads.
There's too few people who want to put forth the energy to have the debate, to take time to correct bad opinions... and instead choose to simply dismiss people and move on.
Why should they, though? What's the value in gutting it out in a community you don't enjoy and doesn't make you better?
Fair enough. That thread is awful. And has highlighted how bad the community can be here.
Question though: Is there a healthier/more diverse design community website out there?
I'm trying to build something new on sub.cafe, not focused on design yet, but could be.
To be devils advocate here. The thread is not awful. What is awful is that the community is degrading other opinions solely on authors gender.
If somebody no matter the gender creates a website which is mostly just photos of the person and video of him/her dancing, with photos in swimsuits, then critique like "it feels like a dating profile" is most certainly valid. You might not like it, you might not agree with it, but it is a feedback. Designers are often criticised for not being able to handle a critique, and this is a nice example of that.
Somebody was mentioning Tobias Van Schneider website and comparing it with this. It is like comparing bananas with bread. Tobias website (while he looks like he is all about ego, and often gets some not so praising comments about it) has only one picture of the dude with a couple of thousands of pixels worth of scrolling of work. While this website is all about fancy photos and videos of the author with work being buried somewhere beneath.
Gender has nothing to do with the feedback the website is getting. While the purpose of Helen's site might not be a portfolio showcase. She is presenting herself as a designer, and this is a designer news site, thus ppl are taking it as a designer website (and a portfolio).
Can you quote or point to a specific "awful" comment on the Helen Tran thread? The comments on the women's only event WERE awful, but that is not the thread being referred to here or in the Twitter link.
It is absolutely true that women receive unfair criticism or doubt from society that men don't receive, I just don't think the Helen Tran website is an example of that.
Is it just because the term "vain" was used? If I made a website that made me come across as vain to people I would want to know. But isn't it possible that there are faults on both sides of this debate and that people CAN be overaggressive about finding bias or prejudice?
It doesn't take long to notice that the community here has become increasingly toxic.
Take a look at this thread discussing a retreat for women in design.
Honestly, when I look over that thread, I see women in the minority. So I think maybe it's time to think about why there aren't as many women participating in threads on DN? (I'm new, so maybe I just haven't seen as many threads with women in them, but yeah).
Maybe it's the guy attacking everyone who defends women?
Well yeah, but I mean not just that thread right. There's plenty of other threads where that isn't happening, but I don't often see women (yet anyway) participating.
One person's attack is another's defending oneself. But this isn't about me, silly! It's plain to see the groupthink mentality in the name of this post, like discourse and morality is a high school popularity contest. Or how some other make designer got his profile pooped on today by zealous defenders of the opposite sex. Perpetrating the same exact biases in the opposite direction doesn't make equality, it makes hypocrisy. I'd be utterly shocked if you responded here in a mature, original manner without relying on some kind of social validation or hyperbole.
Honestly, You might just need to chill out a bit and learn to respect others opinions as much as you do your own. If you still reread that 20 days later and still see it that way, I'm not sure if you got anything from this.
It takes so much conviction to post anonymously on the internet in a field you aren't even involved in!
You are exactly what is wrong with this community, but you're too stubborn and condescending to see it.
Sorry for ruining the near-perfect echo chamber! I'm hardly the problem here, the vacuous comments like yours are far more nefarious. Thanks for sharing your opinion though! Never be afraid to stand up for yourself.
As the topic of this thread very clearly proves, this community isn't a 'near perfect echo chamber'
My comment isn't vacuous, or nefarious, they're simply explaining to you why people get upset with what you're posting, and why people immediately take a defensive tone against you. It's extremely telling that you have to use ad hominem attacks against me and perfectly illustrates why you are bad for this community.
This thread clearly proves if you disagree with the status quo, people will descend on you like vultures for not fitting in line. Stick to facts, I could care less about things that belong in your journal.
You can easily disagree with the status quo, but you can do it in a way that isn't confrontational and condescending, like every one of your replies seems to be.
This whole thread is bro-code for fit in line or we'll try to mock and deride you. Pass.
It really isn't and you have a pretty twisted view of the world if that's what you're getting out of this. People are mocking and deriding you because you're acting like a petulant child.
Here, go tag team on this thread like the petulant child you keep projecting onto random internet people. https://www.designernews.co/stories/89355-the-portfolio-of--nathan-riley
I love how every time I prove you wrong you try and wiggle out of it with insults or distractions. Don't you think if you were right it'd be easy to prove me wrong?
Oh boy alot of wrong to unpack here. These are subjective views, which you and your peers try to shove down everyone's throats, who react childishly and ferverntly when challenged. The only way to be right is to not participate.
No it's not. Like I've previously said, you can easily voice your opinion, but you could do it in a nice way, instead of a condescending way. You have no tact whatsoever and people get defensive because your arguments are aggressive and patronising. I've bought this up several times and you have ignored it every time I have, instead choosing to change the subject or try and distract me with something else (straw man). So why not address that?
Thank you for sharing your opinion and devoting so much time and effort to influence my behavior but I diagree, cheers! (Was that better?)
Not at all because you're still being condescending.
I have invited my female design friends and acquaintances to DN and other design communities and they never really adopt them.
Not sure if it's because there are few women in these communities to make them feel welcome, or because of threads like the retreat for women, or what.
I would really like to make our communities more diverse.
To be fair that thread was mainly one guy arguing with everybody. I don't think you can jump from that one example to "the community here has become increasingly toxic". Also any "toxic" position is invariably met by someone offering a counter-point. Which sounds like a pretty healthy community to me.
It was a recent thread I guess and was pretty extreme, and the guys still going at it in this very thread.
Additionally a lot of lame comments and jokes are copy pasted onto similar work as a sort of inside joke as criticism. (see the other portfolio criticism thread here) and the person initially didn't realize it was a copy paste.
That thread was such a shitfight.
Weird, it's almost as if you can't aggressively push a divisive political agenda to the forefront of every outlet and just have everyone agree or keep their disagreements to themselves. There's such an annoying arrogance to this attitude that you should be free to endlessly promote progressivism without any resistance whatsoever. It isn't "toxic" if you create a Medium article about the evils of white men in tech, but it's toxic if you raise an eyebrow about such an article. There is such a lack of self awareness wrapped up in all of this.
When someone starts attacking/mocking individuals for their opinion it becomes toxic.
There's a lot to be learned by looking at which designers are not participating in shitposting or propagating shitposting by trumpeting it to a larger audience by spreading it across platforms.
Some of it's shit posting, but most of it is just really small minded regressive talk. Shit posting usually at least makes someone laugh, most of this depresses me and makes me realize how few of the designers here I'd seek out for mentor ship or guidance as someone who doesn't fit into the typical background of a designer here.
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