43 comments

  • Dirk HCM van BoxtelDirk HCM van Boxtel, almost 2 years ago

    Some pretty important points are made there.

    20 points
  • Jared KrauseJared Krause, almost 2 years ago

    "Fuck people who use Facebook as a blogging platform"

    18 points
  • Tom WoodTom Wood, almost 2 years ago

    This article isn't about using Facebook on your phone, or about using it as a social media platform, or about how Facebook employees are apparently the equivalent of minions at Dr. Evil's latest military base.

    It would help if people read the articles before writing uniformed comments that just take the debate away from the themes being highlighted. In this case; it's about using Facebook as a blogging/writing platform.

    11 points
    • John PJohn P, almost 2 years ago

      TIL FB articles magicked themselves into existence somehow without the intervention of actual people employed at Facebook.

      1 point
    • Uli SchöberlUli Schöberl, almost 2 years ago

      That's the anecdotal entry point to talk about their active efforts agains an open web. A web that is indexable and where links can be referenced. It's the technology everything important today is standing on what made social media possible in the first place. Facebook is trying to undermine that to cement it's monopoly over all your communication, history and content. It's beside the point to call anyone evil or good, but it's important to discuss why this is wrong.

      5 points
    • Ken Em, almost 2 years ago

      "uniformed comments"

      2 points
  • Brennan Smith, almost 2 years ago

    I haven't used Fakebook for 4 years now. Feels Good Man.

    10 points
  • John PJohn P, almost 2 years ago

    Great article.

    Honestly think it's time to start questioning the ethics of anyone still working at Facebook in 2017.

    Had a CV from an FB employee pass over my email client the other week, went straight in the no pile. Absolutely don't want to work with anyone that has anything to do with such a force of evil on the web.

    8 points
    • Gareth LewisGareth Lewis, almost 2 years ago

      But what if that candidate wanted to move from Facebook for those same reasons? There could be reasons why the individual has just started looking for alternative employment - personal reasons. Just because that person worked at Facebook doesn't mean he/she shares the same views.

      Not trying to have a go, it's obviously up to you, but it seems a bit harsh. You could've missed out on a highly talented and valued employee.

      45 points
    • Joe BlauJoe Blau, almost 2 years ago

      That's a pretty toxic view and maybe that works for your company but it doesn't seem like a great strategy. Facebook has about 17,000 employees working on all types of projects. There are tons of conditions that could keep someone working there for an extended period of time even though they disagree with the larger direction of the company. Here are some examples:

      1. They have a family that is dependent on income.
      2. They have golden handcuffs (equity that needs to hit a vesting schedule) and an early exit could cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars.
      3. Their specific team is actually not that bad. They may be working on and designing products that you never see and it might be a pretty cool team with cool people. Maybe their projects never see the light of day, but the environment is positive so they've stayed. (This happened to me at Amazon)

      Also consider that if they are trying to leave and get around a better environment, you just prejudicially saying "no" just perpetuates the cycle of them staying at Facebook.

      26 points
      • John PJohn P, almost 2 years ago

        Plenty of companies in the world doing horrible things have plenty of people working at them.

        I wouldn't hire anyone who worked in blood diamonds or cosmetics animal testing either.

        To counter your points

        They have a family that is dependent on income.

        If they can get hired by Facebook they're good enough to work elsewhere

        They have golden handcuffs ... and an early exit could cost them hundreds of thousands of dollars

        Plenty of people do shitty things that make the world a worse place for money, this is kinda my point. They made that choice and put their ethics aside for that money.

        Their specific team is actually not that bad

        I'm sure there are plenty of "cool" people working there, but they're happy to be a cog in a shitty machine that makes the world a worse place.

        Also consider that if they are trying to leave

        FB hasn't turned shitty over night, it's been shitty for nearly 10 years now. They know what they were signing up for (unlike most of their users).

        4 points
        • John JacksonJohn Jackson, almost 2 years ago

          Based on your unnecessarily toxic stance, I really don't think your FB candidate was losing out on anything.

          34 points
        • Brian A.Brian A., almost 2 years ago

          Coming back to revise my earlier comment and provide some counterpoints to your counterpoints here.

          If they can get hired by Facebook they're good enough to work elsewhere

          How are they supposed to get hired elsewhere if people like you won't hire them?

          Plenty of people do shitty things that make the world a worse place for money, this is kinda my point. They made that choice and put their ethics aside for that money.

          Do you personally always make the most ethical decision in every scenario? Have you never made a decision that only benefitted you?

          I'm sure there are plenty of "cool" people working there, but they're happy to be a cog in a shitty machine that makes the world a worse place.

          People have different motivations for things; I'm sure that not everyone working at Facebook believes in the mission or is sold on the product. A lot of folks make choices based on what's best for them at the time, and there is nothing wrong with that.

          FB hasn't turned shitty over night, it's been shitty for nearly 10 years now. They know what they were signing up for (unlike most of their users).

          Very true, but I say again: Folks have different motivations, some of which may be what benefits them at the time (e.g., career development, pay, location, etc.). Also, I'm sure that not everyone at Facebook is a long-timer.

          The issue I take with your stance is that it's an extreme, broad generalization for a group of people that you know almost nothing about. You seem to want to shame them for working at a company that you disagree with ethically, and you're punishing them for doing so.

          5 points
    • Ian GoodeIan Goode, almost 2 years ago

      Had a CV from an FB employee pass over my email client the other week, went straight in the no pile. Absolutely don't want to work with anyone that has anything to do with such a force of evil on the web.

      Not a fan of Facebook personally either (although still in the ecosystem thanks to WhatsApp and Instagram) but this mindset is just unnecessarily toxic. You're a human, not a robot, so why be so binary?

      29 points
    • John JacksonJohn Jackson, almost 2 years ago

      That's a pretty terrible approach.

      15 points
      • John PJohn P, almost 2 years ago

        Look into what FB as a service does to the mental wellbeing of their users. Of course I'm taking an extreme approach but personally I see it no different than working for a cigarette company (CV would go in the trash from that too)

        2 points
        • John JacksonJohn Jackson, almost 2 years ago

          I feel like this says a lot more about you than it does them. You wouldn't hire someone who has designed something for cigarettes? Why?

          10 points
        • Thomas PalumboThomas Palumbo, almost 2 years ago

          Comparing Facebook's effects on people with cigarettes is pretty dumb man. What are you even talking about at this point?

          4 points
          • James Young, almost 2 years ago

            I know they're not quite the same level of danger but I must admit that I'm growing more concerned by the day about just what many of these social media companies are doing and how it impacts people.

            We know for a fact that companies like Facebook and Instagram are very much designing how they trickle updates to their users to keep them addicted. I saw an article recently featuring an ex developer talking about how they flood notifications at certain times etc but can't remember the link right now.

            In an age where suicide is a significant killer of people under 40, the effects on people from seeing perfect Instagram shots or promoted Facebook posts all the time is a real danger - especially when they're purposefully promoted over other more mundane updates in timelines.

            John's stance seems to be incredibly binary and a bit of a stretch and I don't think I necessarily agree with it but to be honest the role of design and its crossing into hardcore psychology at some points and the harm it is undoubtedly doing to some vulnerable people is difficult to ignore.

            0 points
    • John LeschinskiJohn Leschinski, almost 2 years ago

      This is the dumbest thing I've read this morning. Force of evil? Get some perspective kid.

      19 points
    • Clay MacTavishClay MacTavish, almost 2 years ago

      Wow that's a bit of a negative rub. Get declined a job at FB? I don't think there is anything wrong with working at Facebook - they are simply trying to make money and grow their platform. I don't think there is a "yeah, lets destroy the internet" sort of intelligent design.

      I think you're projecting.

      2 points
      • Ken Em, almost 2 years ago

        Seems like John P is a bit angry at the world. As someone noted above, that says a lot about them. I hope they are not as toxic toward their current employees.

        1 point
        • Andy MerskinAndy Merskin, almost 2 years ago

          True, as a few of you have said, it does speak to John P's worldview (obvious, how would it otherwise?). All John P is suggesting is that it says a lot about the people who choose to work for Facebook despite the assumed ethical and moral implications of supporting a company that many people believe to be attacking an open web, among many other allegations, and thus, chooses not to hire those who aren't doing the due diligence to understand those implications, amidst a wide open job market that designers (and developers) have. The applicant isn't going to go hungry.

          However, without an interview to get a feel for the person's competence and general fit for the company, sure, it's a bit brash to deny him/her the opportunity without a chance to meet and gauge interest for both parties. But at the end of the day, it's John's choice and in his best interest, for him and his company, to hire how he sees fit, barring obvious discrimination policies.

          Why don't we withhold our personal attacks when we disagree with someone's outlook and generate a constructive conversation around this, acknowledging that there will be disagreements and potentially negative views appearing throughout. Not one of us here can truthfully say their worldview isn't without some sort of cynicism based on the actions of others or a larger entity. Facebook just so happens to be the target, and the fallout of its actions brings us many new things to consider, including hiring.

          0 points
    • matt michelsonmatt michelson, almost 2 years ago

      that's insane

      0 points
  • Norm Sheeran, almost 2 years ago

    I stopped using Facebook in 2007. It's actually nice to see people and get asked, what have you been up to?

    6 points
    • Mick NMick N, almost 2 years ago

      Or on the flip side you constantly get told “you wouldn't have seen this because you're not on Facebook”.

      I've got a running gag now where I see how long it is before a friend reminds me I'm not on Facebook.

      2 points
  • Jim RenaudJim Renaud, almost 2 years ago

    I respect the hell out of Gruber and even agree with most of his commentary in this regard and I worked at Facebook (don't tell John P. or he may have me tried for war crimes).

    I guess my counterpoint to his argument is that most people who use Facebook do not think of their posts as "content" the way Gruber does. Most of the people who share on Facebook want and sometimes need their content shared on a closed platform. See the abuse many women get posting to the open web or more open platforms like Twitter. I like that I can share my photos of my kids, what I am up to and a bit more personal information to my friends and family who are mostly on the other side of the continent from me. I want that content in a closed system. So does Gruber. He is an avid Slack user. I doubt he'd appreciate his Slack content leaking.

    As a blogging platform, Facebook would not be my first choice. I'd probably write to my own blog or Medium and then link it to my closed Facebook network if I thought my friends and family would care. Just as I would send the link to some professional Slack groups I'm on.

    I'm glad Gruber is challenging Facebook in this regard. I just find this more of Fuck Facebook Users, than Facebook. They are just using the wrong tool. I can turn a screw with pliers, but it would be better with a screwdriver and in many cases a drill.

    5 points
  • Thomas PalumboThomas Palumbo, almost 2 years ago

    I use Facebook every day and have zero problems with it...

    3 points
  • Joe BlauJoe Blau, almost 2 years ago

    I've gone pretty extreme with not allowing myself to log into Facebook. I still have an account because occasionally i work somewhere that I need access to it's dev docs. Right now I block fb at my /etc/hosts file and I also have a custom Safari Content blocker that blocks: https?://([a-z\.]*)?facebook\.com.*

    3 points
  • Sam SolomonSam Solomon, almost 2 years ago

    If you've been thinking about moving away from Facebook, but can't seem to pull the trigger—I'd suggest uninstalling it from your phone.

    A few benefits:

    • I've found the mobile website to be much faster and easier to use than the application. Yay React!
    • Much less battery drain. My phone battery probably gained 10-20% more battery life uninstalling Facebook.
    • No annoying notifications. Facebook sends all sorts of notifications to draw you back in. Without notifications, you don't really visit Facebook as much.

    Caveat: You can no longer view messages on Facebook mobile. If you do have a message just go to http://mbasic.facebook.com/ to view them.

    2 points
  • Santiago HuarezSantiago Huarez, almost 2 years ago

    So damn agreed. I've not been FB since 2015. It's useless and lame.

    1 point
  • Alberto G. de la CruzAlberto G. de la Cruz, almost 2 years ago

    Very interesting article. I wonder what are his opinions on keeping written content in large platforms like Medium—not that Medium and Facebook have much in common but his comments on archiving, open web and control over the presentation are compelling.

    0 points
  • Andu PotoracAndu Potorac, almost 2 years ago

    I only need to read the title to get it. But before I read the article I must say they had an amazing F8 this year, truly leading the way with AR and VR.

    0 points
  • Joshua KaufmanJoshua Kaufman, almost 2 years ago

    I deactivated my Facebook account two weeks ago and haven't looked back. Life after is beautiful.

    0 points