This is incredibly incendiary and divisive. How should an average male feel about this? Honestly, "men of designer news" paints every single man as "these women haters". Literally be more divisive Ian Williams.
All men are represented by these comments and if you disagree you're just wrong. No agenda here, move along folks.
This doesn't paint every single man as "these women haters" at all — just the ones quoted. If you click the link, you'll see their names are clearly attached to the statements.
The title is "Men of DesignerNews", not "Misogynists of DesignerNews". So yeah I'm gonna say this title is purposefully inciteful and meant to target every man on here.
If you scroll through you'll note that there are quite a few comments, and the tone of said comments ARE representative of this community as an unsafe space for female members. So yeah, I'm gonna say you're completely missing the point. If you're not being a misogynist, congrats!! This doesn't apply to you! This might interest you though: http://time.com/79357/not-all-men-a-brief-history-of-every-dudes-favorite-argument/
It's a shame we live in a age where an imaginary place is considered unsafe because people don't share your views. Even more scary that people think their entitled to not be exposed to those opinions.
oops you missed the point too
Do you not realize that comments like this only push people away? If you really wanted to convince people to have more empathy for others, shouldn't you be trying to kill em' with kindness?
...but it's not an "unsafe" place for female members. I am female, and I'm telling you from personal experience that this website is not "unsafe". What is "unsafe" about it? Differing opinions? How am I "unsafe" in here? Why do you feel the need to turn me into a victim just because I am female?
But clearly from existence of this site, this thread, and opinions stated a bit further below that many other females DO feel this place is not a welcome place for female members of the design community. Why does your differing opinion invalidate theirs?
That didn't answer my question, which was: what is "unsafe" about Designer News, what is the danger? I am curious as to why I'm being forced into a victim role to fit the narrative. Believe it or not, I am fully capable of handling differing opinions, despite my tiny female brain.
To answer your last point, my differing opinion doesn't invalidate anyone's opinion.
I'd suggest engaging in a conversation with the women whose comments I linked to, as they will be able to give you a much more thorough answer than I.
Maybe avoid making the assertion next time if you can't defend it.
HEY JOHN, CLICK THE LINK BRO! I DON'T GOTTA DEFEND IT, THESE WOMEN ALREADY DID!
And yet, you were asked a question after you discounted the experience of a woman. Maybe let them make the assertions next time, pretty sure they can speak for themselves.
Hmm, don't see how anybody with basic reading comprehension comes to the conclusion that I'm discounting the experience of anyone. It's okay to be wrong John!
Maybe you should aspire to more than just basic English skills.
See the biggest problem with this website is that it assumes things from a regressive left perspective. I am a female dev, and I don't feel harassed on Designer News. I also live together with one of the people quoted on this website, and I know for a fact he is not a misogynist. And yet here someone is painting him as such, just because his opinions do not line up with the left-wing extremist SJW agenda.
it assumes things from a regressive left perspective.
I couldn't agree more. It's crazy.
Agreed. The idea that DN is "unsafe" for women... A classic example of concept creep.
Has the opposite effect as http://www.techiesproject.com/
This I can definitely respect.
Two sides of the same coin. It's important to celebrate diversity, a la techiesproject.
But it is also important to make visible the discrimination women face that makes the the techiesproject necessary in the first place.
This doesn't highlight cases where women are discriminated against. It's personal opinions on a website that has no power other than that you give it.
I see dudes stating their sexist opinions, which is a form of harassment and discrimination to me.
The title of this tumblr generalizes males. Mic drop
Said the person who's not the target of harassment.
Sorry, I meant to comment on the post above yours (I'm on mobile). Sorry you feel harassed. That sucks. I guess this tumblr feels like blanket harassment to others... Surely, on a totally different level though.
I don't feel harassed, as I am not a woman. But I can empathize, and acknowledge the fact that this place can be hostile towards women, as shown by this tumblr.
...and what if I told you it's not hostile at all?
How can I get on your mailing list to make sure I am represented next time you speak for all women?
"I don't feel harassed, as I am not a woman." Pretty sexist remark.
Did this thread rustle your jimmies? Oops, looks like words in an imaginary place have power or something.
Where did I say it "rustled my jimmies"? Stop projecting.
You've replied to this thread 12 times in 2 hours. You're full on mad, bro.
He mad still.
I'm also not really convinced you know what "projecting" means.
You are free to imagine alternate realities all you like.
IBM Watson's Tone Analyzer says you're a liar, dude.
Good for Watson.
Look, to drop the veil and come at this honestly for a second, I really don't think that if we are to exist in a community an appropriate response to someone telling you they feel uncomfortable is for you to tell them to suck it up. It does nothing to further a line of dialogue and denies them their right to own their feelings.
Given the tone of condescension and indignation with which you slather your posts, I feel like you have more than enough mental capacity to understand why saying something like "More talented men on Dribbble than women, evidential." could make women here feel uncomfortable.
, I really don't think that if we are to exist in a community an appropriate response to someone telling you they feel uncomfortable is for you to tell them to suck it up.
But that is exactly what is happening in this thread to people who take issue with the title of the site being too generalized. It's pure hypocrisy.
I never said that. You on the other hand did. To point it out as hypocrisy proves that you understand my point.
Personally, I do think the name of the tumblr probably could have been worded better. In a kind of tangential argument, I feel like what we refer to as "the patriarchy" is probably poorly named as well.
If you really want to continue this conversation, message me on twitter. This is a waste of space on DN.
just checked that out. its a neat idea, but it reported everything I tried (a bunch of slack convos) as mostly anger... might need a little calibration
If this is how you feel, then perhaps you should call out those comments when they are made here on DN? And not allow the statements of individuals to "paint every single man", as you say.
And not allow the statements of individuals to "paint every single man"
The statements don't do that on their own. Are you serious?
One man says something about women therefore ALL men are held liable? No. That one man made a statement and he speaks for himself. I am not liable for what anybody else says. Grow up.
You're right, they don't. But in quantity, and when simply given a pass by the rest of the community?
I'm suggesting that the community as a collective is responsible for the values propagated by that community.
Totally agreed. They should be liable for what they say, I'm liable for what I say.
So why are you offended when someone calls out what they are saying?
Just who will stand up for the men?
This also made me lol and I'm a woman... hope that's cool
I think an average man should be appalled that all those things were actually said in this community. They're quotes. These ARE men of designer news. People are smart enough to know "not all men..." The problem being called out is that enough of the men spout that type of misogyny and go unchallenged. Do you think that calling these comments out is more incendiary and divisive than people making them in the first place?
Yay thank you for writing this! Well put.
Except...very little of what is being quoted on that site is actually misogyny.
How many threads about women's and PoC issues are you going to come through with the "I'm a woman and see no diversity problems with this industry argument" before acknowledge maybe people aren't just making this up, Ix? You have your anecdotes, other people have theirs. You don't have to try and derail every conversation.
Although the title is a bit divisive, literally nobody is saying its all the men on Designer News.
Instead of talking about how its not all men who behave this way, we should be talking about how to deal with the people who do.
This guy gets it.
Dude I laugh at this comic every. single. time.
How SHOULD the average male feel? The average male SHOULD feel empathy and anger over the ways in which many women are clearly subjected to verbal violence and abuse in the communities they inhabit. The average male SHOULD feel like they are empowered and incentivized to advocate for equitable and respectful treatment of women.
But apparently, the average male looks at this Tumblr and the comments documented on it, and immediately thinks to defend all men because he feels like he is "under attack", and probably gets more angry over this Tumblr existing (and what it's NAMED, for God's sake) than he EVER has about the mistreatment and abuse of women.
isn't the point that as a man you can't feel empathy in this situation? it's sympathy not empathy?
No, that is not the point.
And that's not what empathy means.
And that's not what sympathy means either.
I think this is actually pretty funny!
People talking about me? BTW, nice post. <3
I think this is wonderful and highlights the major reason that actual people who are serious players in design discourse stay the fuck away from this place.
The content on that site is precisely why I try to avoid the comments section on here. It's awful. DN, for me, is the best site out there at curating good quality articles/designs/hosting real design discussions, and yet at least once a week I scroll through the comments here and get a sick feeling in my stomach because I have to read another misogynistic or just generally rude and insulting remark.
I think it’s pretty clear that the lack of women on this website is not attributed to a lack of women in design or interest in being a part of design communities, but rather the way certain people here make this place completely unwelcoming to us.
Absolutely agreed. I come here for the content and latest design news but there have been many instances of utterly ignorant comments pertaining to gender and/or race. Especially, as one would expect, in topics related to diversity. As a result, I tend to now opt out of participating in discussions.
I logged in just so I could upvote this and say, ditto.
Can this please be stickied to the top?
I'd be interested to know if there are other design communities that you feel are more welcoming to women? If so how do they achieve that?
I'm just worried that you just can't avoid a minimum ratio of "certain people" in any community, unless you resort to really heavy-handed moderation…?
I'm curious too, because I would love a woman-friendly space for designers on the internet that encourages actual discussion.
You probably can't avoid it. But you can call it out when you see it. If enough people do that (be they men of women), it can be seen as unacceptable by the community at large. I have to say, looking at the comments on the Tumblr I don't feel attacked for being a man, I'm simply appalled that these men have such a lack of awareness as to what they are saying.
probably right - I only come here to troll :D
It's disappointing, and very telling, that the majority of the responses to this post have been defensive, dismissive, or deflective. Instead of acknowledging and discussing the comments highlighted, we've simply ignored them and rushed to the defence of 'all men' — our only concern the 'fairness' of the title (note: 'men' does not, and has never implied 'all men', this is just deflective).
I can't imagine the intent wasn't to create a divisive discussion when they chose the title. It's not as if "not all men" was born today, and there is no escaping knowing that a title like this would cause people to react the way they did.
Perhaps consider that a 'divisive' title (or maybe we could say it's 'bold', or 'challenging') is necessary because they're trying to point to issues that have been highlighted countless times before, yet still permeate our industry and culture.
Consider that they've chosen this title because it both gains attention, and doesn't actually offend anyone. If anyone thinks they're offended by it, then they need to step back and evaluate why. That's the point of the title.
All the title does is preach to the echo chamber. It does nothing to bring people on side, and the idea that someone can't be offended by the title without being the subject of it is inane reasoning.
Well that's not all the title does. It also reveals who's ready to jump to the defense of misogynistic behavior!
(Edited from "misogynists" since I don't believe all of the people listed here are necessarily sexist).
I disagree. I think that people have reacted unjustifiably to this post. The selected posts show that men are being sexist and discriminatory here. To look at that and simply dismiss or ignore it (as you seem to be doing, still) is a conscious decision.
To reiterate, there's nothing unfair about the title. There's nothing offensive about the title. I didn't say that you can't be offended by the title, but if you think that you are, you very much need to evaluate why.
I'll tell you why, though — because getting offended by something like this title is childishly inconsequential in comparison to the shit that women, PoC, and LGBTQI people have to put up with every day. If you look at the title and feel unfairly treated, please step back and look at what everyone else is having to deal with all the time. Please.
The old, "others have it worse so shut up" argument. It cuts both ways though.
Not only did I not say that (I said to please think and evaluate your feelings), but you've managed to be both defensive and deflective again. You've just illustrated the entire problem.
Also, paraphrasing my argument to sound aggressive and basic is a pretty bullshit response. How about you give me a little respect if you're going to try and engage in a discussion, and not treat me like a 12-year-old. Would also help if you offered something substantial to the discussion.
You're not interested in a discussion, you're interested in dismissing peoples concerns that you feel are unjustified.
Says someone who has responded with literally just "Nope." and "Projecting still." in other comments in this discussion. I'm done with you. Please, take the last word, you toxic hypocrite.
Says someone who has responded with literally just "Nope." and "Projecting still." in other comments in this discussion.
In response to a comment saying I'm "mad, bro". I guess I should have written a dissertation in reply? Give your head a shake.
Is it just me, or is there an overwhelming absence of female input on this thread?
I did a quick scroll down the page and counted only a small handful of names that one might expect to be given to a female (sorry, not to gender-normalize : / ).
As a woman, my reaction to this site is that I'm glad someone is putting a spotlight on some of these comments. Granted, they are pulled out of context. I'm not very outspoken or vehement in my opinions, in general, let alone regarding feminism, but some of the comments on the site seem to be inappropriate no matter what the context.
Discrimination, of all kinds, can be subtle and still have a massive impact. On top of that, it's hard to see the discrimination if you're not the one experiencing it.
So... I don't mind that someone made this site. I'm glad they are more open to put their opinions out there than I am.
As a woman my reaction to this Tumblr is that it polarises people and feeds the regressive left's SJW agenda in which they want to silence people for having the "wrong" opinion. There are a couple of misogynistic comments on that site, but the vast majority of them are not misogynistic at all.
It's not just Designer News. The whole industry is super homogenous. And this is coming from me - a white male, glasses wearing hipster like 95% of the rest of you.
Any efforts to diversify the industry will annoy the incumbents. It's natural (and hilarious as this blog shows) for those in power to resist change.
We have to keep an open mind, swallow our pride, and at all costs avoid being defensive. We all know the industry needs new perspectives. And if that means I get passed over because I'm not adding diversity (and the other candidate is qualified), so be it. Something's gotta give.
a white male, glasses wearing hipster like the rest of you.
Speak for yourself because that's not me.
Yeah I edited it to 95%. It's an exaggeration obviously. Thankfully the industry is not entirely homogenous. But pretty damn close. That's the point the point of the comment.
Where are you getting your data that there isn't enough diversity in the industry?
Hmm, it's pretty obvious if you've gone to any design meetup, conference, or browsed Dribbble and the design slack channels.
Yes, that's anecdotal. I'd honestly love to see data that proves otherwise if you have it.
Ya, entirely anecdotal, which isn't a great basis to make sweeping generalizations. I'd love to see some data as well showing what the disparity is if one exists.
Keep in mind that those are % of people working in all areas of the companies listed, not just tech. If you take Facebook for example - there's a much larger gender disparity between people working in tech than in other areas: http://newsroom.fb.com/news/2015/06/driving-diversity-at-facebook/
I believe the industry is DESIGN, not TECH.
We need to encourage proportionate representation of gender in all areas then, I would say. Tech happens to be mostly male, while teaching and nursing happens to be mostly female. Perhaps we could implement hiring requirements for gender based on the demographics in each state?
Turns out that most of the quoted comments on that Tumblr are actually no misogynistic at all, instead likely only published because the creator of this Tumblr obviously has a hard time with people having different opinions than him/herself.
Definition of misogyny: dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women.
So let's take a look at the comments in the Tumblr:
"How should an average male feel about this?" - Questioning how an average male should feel about a list of comments has nothing to do with contempt for women.
"You need a reality check, go live in a country where misogyny actually exists for a few months, then come back to me" - Denying misogyny is now by definition misogyny? Of course not.
"The majority of DN’s audience is men. Therefore, they will see a higher ROI if they sell men’s t-shirts. It’s a pretty simple business decision, really" - Pointing out how capitalism works doesn't mean the commenter is a misogynist. The reason why the majority of DN's audience are men could be misogyny (but probably isn't), but the commenter is not a misogynist for pointing out that selling to men on a platform full of men would result in the best ROI.
"Being a feminist is the hip, anti-bro du jour in the tech industry right now. #zeitgeist" - Misogynist for highlighting a trend among white males white knighting like crazy?
"So wait, you find one or two sexist games and determine the entire industry needs your help? Did you miss the 10,000 games that are sexist towards men?" - Misogynist for pointing out that although some games have objectification issues, most games don't? Misogynist for pointing out that most games turns the male protagonist into an unobtainable hero object?
"If the bias is that user icons are predominantly male forward, then reversing that to make it female forward is still a biased solution." - Misogynist for holding the opinion that affirmative action-type strategies are not good solutions to equality issues?
"Beth, try making a coherent argument. Check his privilege? Check your assumptions and tired cliches." - Misogynist for saying someone is using clichés? I assume it's misogynist because it's a man not agreeing with a woman.
"I wish radical feminists would stop victimising themselves into submission by claiming the world is against them. You can find discrimination in anything. I’m a short guy and I could easily write a blog post about how it’s harder to raise money when you’re a short man. The world favours tall people, etc." - Misogynist for pointing out that there are discrimination issues everywhere if you look close enough? Or misogynistic because the commenter, who I personally know by the way, doesn't feel women are victims?
...and so on.
Slow clap. It seems you are the only sane person here. It's unfortunate that early comments will always be upvoted more than ones that are thoughtful and well reasoned like yours. Best comment in this whole thread.
This. All the way. Thanks for taking the time to write this up.
I can’t address every point here, but “Men of Designer News” doesn’t seem to claim to be a list of strictly misogynist posts (although that does seem to be at the root of some of the cases).
Most of them are anti-feminist and not very friendly, though. I read that list and think: is this a community I want to participate in?
I'd say that this is just as much a critique of those that run DN as it is a critique of the design community as a whole. Other than spam, there doesn't seem to be much moderation happening to increase the quality of the community itself.
You mean moderators should censor opinions that don't align with the regressive left? Very few of the comments on that site are misogynistic. Most of them are political arguments with zero sexism applied.
Wow you posted something good.
"Design AND Technology"...
This is beautiful!
Also, hoping we can keep the comments on this post civil and open minded!
Sure as long as "open minded" includes the idea that blanketing straight white men as misogynists is just as wrong as blanketing all women as inept.
I don't think anybody (sane) would tell you that straight white men are all misogynists - just that being straight, white and male automatically affords you privilege over those who aren't - I saw an excellent talk by Lena Reinhard where she explained it articulately, highly recommend checking out her stuff.
This isn't the conference I saw her at, but I think it's the same talk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3e3V66TH2Y
If you identify with these people strongly enough to feel personally targeted when they are targeted, then you probably are in fact one of those people, no?
For a politically unburdened analogue: It's like a dog getting upset over totally valid criticisms of cats saying "we're not all like that!" One might be suspicious of the dog's sympathizing...
No I'm sick of every man being blanketed as wrong just for being a man. Some men as mysoginists. Some women are misandrists.
Neither group should be lumped together and blanketed.
I don't feel targeted because I believe these things; I feel targeted simply because I'm a man.
What exactly implies that this post is about you?
To be frank, unless you actually do identify with these people (which I trust that you don't), I'm not sure what besides paranoia or narcissism would lead you to believe that this is talking about you.
Again, what dog has ever been offended by a critique of cats?
What exactly implies that this post is about you?
Maybe the title has something to do with it. I'm going to guess Mike is a Man, and is a part of Designer News.
That's why Humans of New York catalogues all 8 million residents of New York City. And that "Techies" photography project is an atlas for literally every single Techie ever. It also explains why English totally doesn't have the words "every" or "all" for when you do, in fact, mean to describe "all" members of a certain group.
Now it all makes sense, and god dammit I'm outraged.
It's a shame everyone can't share your individual view on language. Then we wouldn't have to deal with different opinions than yours.
Quantifiers aren't a matter of opinion.
Clearly they are.
I must've just missed the comments from all of you upset that you weren't photographed and interviewed for Techies.
Not all techies!
Weird. This obviously isn't going anywhere, have a good day!
You need to understand this isn't about you though. Neither is every man being targeted and blanketed. However the title is phrased, the intent of this is to make an argument of how common and easy it is for sexist conversations to occur here.
The point of the "men" in the title is to highlight how men are the type of person to leave such shitty comments, not to imply that all men are the same, which is obvious to anyone who's ever once seen two men disagree on something in their entire life.
" I think even middle class straight white males brings different perspectives to a team. At least that’s my experience. "
- How is this negative? Some of the quoted posts on this blog seem a little over the top.
It's not negative per se, but it's an extremely privileged viewpoint that doesn't recognize said privilege.
I imagine the parent went something like "teams work better when a diverse group of people—men, women, people of color, straight, gay, queer, trans, etc—come together to solve problems." This comment is essentially saying "In my opinion, teams of just straight white men are enough."
I guess my privilege is preventing me from seeing how stating that middle class white males can bring different perspectives to a team is a privileged statement.
I don't mean to suggest that straight middle-class white males won't bring different perspectives, but if your team is composed only of that group, don't you think the scope of the perspectives your team can have is limited?
Of course it's limited, but that's not what this quoted user seems to be saying until you assume biased information. He states "even middle class straight white males bring different perspectives to a team" The user is LITERALLY only suggesting that middle class white males bring different perspectives to a team. This quote is then being lumped in with shit like this - " What a huge pussy you are. I bet you’re the kind of guy to say you’re a feminist in your Twitter bio."
But do you see how many biased assumptions you have to make to come to that conclusion?
Well, if I check the comment thread, that's exactly what happened.
My thought process doesn't generalize, " I think even middle class straight white males brings different perspectives to a team. At least that’s my experience. " into "In my opinion, teams of just straight white men are enough." and that's where we differ. =/
The word for "not generalizing" would be "discrimination". If someone said "yower-class homosexual women bring different perspectives to the team" you wouldn't extrapolate to an entire team, and it's silly to try to publicly shame someone for the words we put in their mouth because we discriminate against them.
Don't believe I put words in anyone's mouth. I used direct quotes.
A woman made this.
No, it was a dog can't you see?
He does look like one. Can I use the word 'he'?
The comment thread for this site just doubled the amount of posts on the site. :(
It was to be expected.
YES, I made the list!
Me too! high five
It's worth noting that most of the comments that made an appearance on the tumblr were displayed out of context with the rest of their post. The author simply highlights the part that could be the most divisive and displays that, rather than including the entire post.
Y’all are fucking adorable. Being personally offended by comments displayed without context, clearly showing shitlords being shitlords, probably means you should meditate on your own shitlordiness.
Keep your highly entertaining self-parody up until you implode!
While shitlords may be shirtlords, it doesn't prevent author from making people look like shitlords who aren't shitlords.
White dudes complaining about white dudes
Case in point all.. them.. white... dudes...
I recall the old days when i used to get most of my design gossip and news and tips etc etc from Zeldman, K10k, surfstation, Australiainfront, a hand full of others .... I loved it, but when i looked at the postings, it always felt like I was standing on the outside of a great party I wasn't invited to...
then along came Newstoday. it was like the wild wild west...people posted the most crazy stuff, their opinions collided and smashed into each other... Anyone here know who Transfatty is? my first interaction with him online was an argument...I won't go into what it was about, but, safe-to-say, it was somewhat along the lines of what's going on here now....or close enough for rocknroll... and a heated arguement it was...between many, MANY designers....but we got passed it, and I ended up liking the guy, although i still disagreed with him...i could and did respect his work.
Newstoday allowed me the chance to chat with and get to know designers from all over the world...I really truly value that. Shellie in LA...Brooke the incredible illustrator, huny c. young in NYC...hell...even LIMMEY...(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limmy's_Show) used to post there all the time... that's what connection is all about...over the years, I got to know some of these folks from chatting online at Newstoday.... got to appreciate their designs and art, and appreciate them as people. One thing i tried to get right from the very begining, was to always maintain a clean and decent online profile. It occured to me (as it must to many of you) that this lives forever. what you post is frequently what you're thought to be ...period. So...over the many years, i've tried to keep it clean, positive, and as much as possible, about the work..about design. I've not always been perfect at that, but as close as I can be.
Newstoday eventually became QBN, and for the most part, many of the old gang nolonger post there. it's not really the same. there's flame wars about political leanings, folks who support trump vs. those who dont...blah blah.... I still go there from time to time for a laugh, or to see if any of the old gang is around, but usually they aren't.
which brings us to Designer News. I'm positive that a LOT of the old Newstoday folks are here (hey folks..it's me Exador) For the most part, I've loved what I've seen on DN... it's great to see all the posts about design...folks helping each other, folks talking about great new apps for design...I love it.
so it really sucks to see what I'm seeing here today...
I'm hoping folks keep it clean....keep it about design....keep it about being helpful to each other....and lets try and be supportive of each other.
lashing out, shaming folks with a site like that tumbler site....I don't know...that just seems to me to be really truly damaging. it damages peoples reputations, it damages the trust we have in DN (why post here if it's just going to end up on that site etc)
but more than that.... I hate the idea that folks aren't comfortable here. If someone was that upset by what they were reading here, somethings really wrong.
Lets try and fix it together...instead of pulling it down around our ears and dancing around the fire.
While we're on the subject, in the last 12 months, 75% of the DN AMAs have been male. On average, female AMAs have seen about 25% less comments and 10% less upvotes than the male AMAs.
And this is a problem why?
Because it belies a bias against female designers?
...or it simply reflects the userbase, of which most are men. Just because men are overrepresented in the tech industry doesn't mean there is social injustice happening. Most nurses are women, doesn't mean there is anti-male discrimination happening, or that there is an inherent social problem with the care industry.
Why should the gender breakdown of the userbase affect the upvotes and comments on AMAs?
Why do you assume they get fewer comments and upvotes simply because they are women? Perhaps the content isn't very good. Or are you saying men sit around on DN and actively decide to not comment or upvote if they see that the post has been started by a name that could be female?
Well, maybe. But as far as hypotheses go, the correlation that "hey, the common thread among all of these is that they're by women!" seems much stronger than the just-world fallacy.
Well again...claiming that men refuse to comment or upvote just because the username looks female is a conspiracy-level absurdity.
Unconscious bias, not some vast secret men conspiracy. Psychological and sociological studies find people have all sorts of biases; see my other comment.
In fact, the issue of gender comes up a lot, and here it is better to think about without too much trouble to get acquainted. I hope I can help by suggesting that it is better to go to professionals. I, for example, was able to review the data about gender roles in this piece https://studydriver.com/gender-roles-in-their-eyes-were-watching-god/ . There are very interesting essays written there, I even used information from there to write my term paper. I hope that I was able to help you with this as well.
You'd think if tech and design companies wanted to ensure diversity, it would be pretty easy to look at the demographics in their area and implement hiring quotas directly proportional to the population.
Affirmative action is the ultimate insult to me as a woman. I want to be hired based on my skill, not based on whether I have a vagina or not.
See, I agree. Not a fan of it either. But if tech companies say they want diversity, you'd think that'd be the fastest way to achieve it.
Sure, although I don't understand why the quest for diversity is so strong. What is the real-life benefit of desperately seeking diversity? You can't measure ROI in social justice points.
What I mean is: I grew up with a lot of brothers and not a single sister. I will likely not bring a "female perspective" to a company, and yet I would get hired for that specific reason, as if all women/people of colour have the same perspective as a collective.
A company could consist of three black guys and two women from India and still end up with a "lad culture", as this is not specific to white males in their 20s, it is specific to their particular upbringing and attitude.
But not being hired because you're a woman doesn't bother you?
Unlike the comments and upvotes on Designer News AMAs, this is easily controlled for factors other than perceived gender, and studies have repeatedly shown that white- and male- sounding names have a much higher chance of receiving responses to job applications.
- http://www.chicagobooth.edu/pdf/bertrand.pdf -http://fortune.com/2014/10/07/race-gender-sexual-orientation-job-applications/
I'm well aware of these gender CV blind tests, but they do not confirm misogyny, they confirm the social bias we all have, against a whole group of attributes like gender, height, hair colour, facial expressions, style of writing, etc. It is not unique to women.
So no, the theory that I wouldn't get hired just because I'm a woman doesn't bother me, because I simply do not believe in radical feminist theories about a global subconscious conspiracy against women. I will not turn myself into a victim of conspiracy to explain why I'm not getting jobs I want.
Besides, isn't Hilary Clinton completely disproving the structural conspiracy argument? Surely if there was a patriarchal conspiracy against women, she would not be the favourite to become president.
I never said it was unique to women. But I'm not sure what world you live in where someone can not only be biased against women (or people of color, or trans people, etc) but not consider them for a job on the basis of that bias, and yet it's somehow not sexism. Denying someone an opportunity on the basis of their gender is the literal definition of sexism.
Hilary Clinto proves it's possible for women to overcome these obstacles. That says nothing about how difficult it was for her to do so relative to her male colleagues.
Re: your continued used of the word conspiracy, literally no one is saying that there's any sort of conspiracy. Just you.
Then more females should become designers/developers. I'm 100% open to women doing AMA's, and so is every other designer with a penis attached to their anterior pelvis.
Maybe there just isn't that many females working as designers. Maybe the industry just is what it is, not because of discrimination, but because of personal interests and personal career choices made up during high school & college.
How many women work on oil rigs? Should we be pushing more women into every career path that has over 50% representation by men?
Or should we treat women like fucking adults who can use their own free will to decide what sort of work they want to do?
[thou] doth protest too much, this thread right here.
I like the tumblr. It kinda makes me realize how much privilege I must have to not even notice how exclusive this community can be. That really sucks.
In DN staff's defense, I really don't know what better moderation can be done, when so much of it is passive or subconscious. Sounds like a thankless job. Maybe I'm pessimistic.
I think we should be discussing design, not bashing genders.
We're bashing sexist men, which is one of the most toxic elements of the web design profession and community.
No, you're bashing men whose opinions you don't agree with. There is very little actual misogyny being displayed on that Tumblr.
For those criticizing this as not offering providing any "solution" (a tall order if you ask me), one way one might be part of a solution is to make a conscious effort to upvote and submit stories about or, even better, by underrepresented non-cis-male designers. Alternatively, invite your non-male designer friends (assuming you have them) to join the community (perhaps with a word of warning, especially given the glimpse of misogynistic displays highlighted here). For that last solution to work it requires users to also consider upvoting comments/stories of those who don't identify as men to provide space for their voices to be heard. Another solution is to start reporting the comments highlighted in this tumblr (and others) to help build a more inclusive community.
Perhaps those who are upset with this blog could create a counter-blog which highlights the most insightful and positive comments and submissions by non-cis-male community members to help take the spotlight off of men and better share this space. A great by-product of that is you would be supporting these underrepresented community members and representing this community as a safe space for them (see: becoming part of the solution).
Personally, I think highlighting the negative misogynistic behavior in this community is a very valuable thing and hopefully was eye-opening to some, and perhaps inspiring for those who felt disillusioned by it (such as myself) to take more action toward make this an inclusive and more positive community.
I scoffed involuntarily the second I read the title of this. Glad to see my assumptions were correct.
Do all these "men" personally identify as male tho? This is problematic.
I actually identify as a force of nature. Please don't call me a man or a woman.
I am ashamed of some of the men on DN. If you degrade or limit others personally, then how can you be trusted with anything professionally? I don't want mra apologists in this industry.
I think the unfortunate sexism and lack of understanding in the comments here is unacceptable.
DN mods, please do the right thing and publicly decry the dialogue here. You're witnessing the community become ever more hostile to women.
Had this site been cloned be changed from men to women, or white dudes to Hispanic dudes the "community" would be up in arms.
So, consider this: its okay for us to shame one group but not okay to shame another group for with similar categorization (sex, race, privilege).
TL;DR: Spade should call a spade a spade.
*Late to the party. But going to reply anyway. *
I live in a country where there's quite some equality between men and women. There could be more, of course. I also know that I cannot experience and therefore feel what it's like to not feel welcome. Or to feel harassed. Or to feel that you need to work twice as hard.
And yes, I have made comments on the workfloor that made me cringe a bit afterwards. There were probably situations where I could've done better. You feel shitty, you learn, and you try harder.
A design challenge?
Now this tumblr blog is an easy way to score some points. Yay, a blog with public commenting has some assholes. But our profession is better than that. Whenever we talk to clients, we ask them difficult questions. We need to know what their goal is, their ambition, their big vision. What challenges do they have and how can we help them meet their goals?
Now when looking at this tumblr blog, I find it hard to find some sort of rationale behind this. Is shaming assholes really the best we can do to transform our community?
If we were our own client
Let's say we get a client that really has a shitty website. And they are a bit ignorant, they don't know better. Are we really going to give them a presentation highlighting the shitty parts of their website? Of course not. We show them a vision. We give them something to reach for. And of course, we can frame this against some bad parts of their old website. But we can only effectively travel towards a goal, just running away from something isn't enough.
Starting with a vision
I think we need to create a vision of how we would like our community to be. And we should make it so strong, tempting and beautiful, that even assholes want to be part of it. And we need to make it so that assholes can't be part of it. So they need to change. Because being part of something constructive is way more fun than wrecking stuff.
This is what we do. We take challenges and we create a vision. And we make it work. This is what makes us human, what makes us unique. I'd much rather be part of a movement that works like this, than a movement that shames assholes.
Hey man, the enthusiasm is great but "treating women as humans and with respect" isn't a complex idea and certainly doesn't need a keynote presentation
Nope, it's not a complex idea.
I just think highlighting the negative parts of what we should leave behind, brings us less far than painting of picture of where we want to go.
I'm sure the comments here are going to be great.
This is a generalization and doesn't help ANYTHING. I'm all for exposing people for their bullshit, but offer some sort of solution in addition.
solution: don't be a sexist pile of shit! wow incredible
Does it really need a little description at the top that tells people how not to be a sexist dick? Can you, a person who has seen the post and can see that it is highlighting bad things, offer a solution instead of being deflective?
OMG who did this?! LOL
This is not what I thought it was going to be.
It makes me so sad to see comments like this on DN. Makes me ashamed to be a guy frankly sometimes.
You shouldn't be.
I didn't make the list :(
I didn't read all 140+ comments
So I'm positive I'm about to say something that's been addressed/said/whatever
But is it not possible for people to fight for general empathy and being decent to people (what I think this project is attempting to accomplish) without simultaneously invalidating any opinion that doesn't agree with said project?
All I see in this thread is either "this is awesome, your a scumbag if you don't agree" or "this is divisive and mean spirited, stop being offended by everything"
For the love of trying to advance the world with good design, can we not agree that diversity is good, and shaming everyone who disagrees with you is counter-productive?
Accepting hateful and oppressive speech as part of normal discourse is a dangerous line to thread.
You completely missed the point. The post you replied to is talking about how we're talking to each other in this thread.
So yes, shaming and exposing assholes that post misogynist comments on a public forum is completely fine.
I'm not saying that hateful and oppressive speech should be accepted, I'm asking if shaming those who speech in hateful ways is the most effective way to solve the problem?
I stand alongside everyone that wants to see women treated fairly, for minorities and people of color to feel safe in the same society a white male does. However, I do not believe that attacking anyone that doesn't agree with me is the best tactic for moving the needle of progress forward. We assume people saying these things can be "shown the light" or somehow convinced to see the situation through our eyes rather than their own. When really we should be trying to relate to them, and not pushing them farther away from our side by employing the same negative tactics they use.
But is this highlight of their comments really "attacking" its subjects? It's literally quoting their comments without anything — in fact, the tumblr doesn't even call them mysoginists, just says "Men of DN".
The whole debacle is going around the fact that these guys don't want anyone to have the perception that they are mysoginists, when in fact the first step towards not being one is just apologizing and admitting when you are.
Instead all we see here is men avoiding responsibility and trying really hard to pretend there's nothing wrong with this community. It's depressive, and honestly, I don't blame anyone that feels strongly against all of this crap.
I believe that if it's mean-spirited, it's likely perceived as attacking. Again, I'm not trying to defend any of this nonsense, but I'm trying to cut through the noise to the person on the other side of the computer screen.
Your argument is that "these guys" don't want to be though badly of. Of course they don't! Who would want to be attacked for what they believe in? Communication is a really complex thing, I'm sure you could relate to me when I say that I often say things in a way that doesn't capture my full intent. By highlighting comments, rallying them all up together and calling them all nasty names, what do you expect people who sit on that side of the dialogue to feel?
Being attacked makes for great motivation to attack back. It's a little harder to feel vengeful against other people if they speak to you like you're a human being. Just because we don't agree with them, doesn't mean we should assume that write on a website is a full representation of who they are as a person. The most successful civil rights endeavors in the history of the world, have been solved with positivity and inspiration, not public shaming and a demand that they change their ways.
The problem with this post is that every comment is taken out of context. Sure a lot of them aren't good, but others are parts long discussions. A better title would be 'Shit of DesignerNews' Some of them are comments to the opposite sex who also have no dignity.
I felt conflicted about whether to comment, but, hey - it's the Internet, it's what it's here for...
So, I think the biggest downfall of sites like these are that they do use the label "men" to delineate the group of people making the sexist remarks.
Now, before we slap the label "not all men" on me, how would it feel if we instead said "Humans of Designer News"? (It's really quite difficult to hold back "not all humans!")
A lot of people will say that we need to be more specific, and this outlines the reason why. If we zoom out a level, things start getting a bit uncomfortable for the people we zoom out to. It's lazy to generalize, and it's damaging to create stereotypes to try to "balance the scales."
Now, "Humans of Designer News" isn't quite appropriate, is it? Because now, we're lumping in a bunch of people who don't quite deserve to be lumped in, and in fact we're also lumping in the victims.
Coming to Designer News casually, and being as intentionally respectful of people on this site as I know how to be, then seeing this tumblr - both for the ridiculousness of the misogyny AND for the incendiary nature of this tumblr to begin with - is enough to click x for the day.
Let me be very clear: there's no excuse for disrespecting women on Designer News. And, there's also no excuse to perpetuate harmful stereotypes.
It's understandable to feel defensive about the title because it does generalise a bit. But the thing is, there is no one who goes on the site that believes it is representative of all men on designer news.
I'm a woman, I come on Designer News every day and see that many of the men here are civil and respectful. When I saw the site, I didn't think it was representative of all men on dn at all.
But now the vast majority of comments on this thread are about the title of the site rather than the content. It seems that the men who are so quick to say that the site doesn't represent them are way more bothered about the title rather than the real problem at hand.
That's fair, to some extent.
I do believe that language is important, seeing as that's how we get in these kinds of messes, so it shouldn't be glossed over on either side. What we say affects the way people think.
If I created a generalized title of "Women of Designer News" and then chose only a particular subset of those women, I would be inaccurate to some degree with my language, and that is harmful.
To say that "there is no one who goes on the site that believes it is representative of all men on designer news" doesn't cover the tracks all the way, because the language is still indicative that it is all encompassing. Again, we can go back to the zoomed out view - why not name it "People of Designer News" instead, since we wouldn't assume it meant all the people?
So, I don't think we can demand better, more respectful language on one hand, and allow for inference on the other hand.
With all of that said, it's a minor inconvenience to me, and more likely a major inconvenience to a large number of women on Designer News, and my quibbles are probably better kept to myself. :)
We don't run out of apologies, gentlemen. They are free and powerful, if sincere. Use them generously.
I just wanted to say that this is a really great comment. I understand the complaints in terms of accuracy, but I hate when people use it to delegitimize the complaints themselves.
You did a fantastic job of balancing the need for specificity of language with the need for real action.
I think we'd be giving up some powerful artistic and rhetorical tools if we tried to make the title of everything exactly accurate.
e.g. "Humans of New York", "Techies", "People of Color in Tech"
No one complains that "Silicon Valley" isn't instead called "A Satire of Silicon Valley Stereotypes".
We don't run out of apologies, gentlemen. They are free and powerful, if sincere. Use them generously.
^ great comment :)
I looooooove this. Thank you!
While I do think we need to talk about the percentage of women in tech, I don't see how these comments are the problem.
The narrative should be "let's look at why women are not going into tech? is it because their discriminated against?" instead of "the problem is MEN". The latter will make most men switch into defensive mode, because most men have nothing against women.
So, can someone explain what I'm missing?
Sure. The problem isn't men. There is not a single woman who considered a career in tech and decided against it because "men." There are probably a lot of women who approached careers in tech and were dissuaded by these types of statements, most of which are made by men. No one worth listening to has ever said "the problem is men."
I go to a very male (70%+) engineering school in a rather progressive part of the country. Women are dismissed non-stop here. By students, by professors, by administrators. Our school president is a woman (of color), one of the most prolific physicists alive, and even she isn't immune to this type of "women aren't good enough to be in STEM" sentiment. This is, mind you, from a bunch of 20 year old upper middle class white males who are actually totally ignorant of the opportunities they've been afforded. This attitude is fostered throughout a student's most formative years – the years he merges his personal, social, and professional identities. You think that when he graduates he's suddenly woken up from the echo chamber he just spent four years within? He goes to tech companies which disproportionately hire people just like him, from schools just like his.
The problem is not men. That's why, as a man, I don't feel targeted by this. The problem is sexism. That's why, as a feminist, I don't feel targeted by this. More broadly, the problem is this gigantic echo chamber that men in tech spend at least four years within before they even get a job. Right now you're catching a glimpse of what happens when the echo is interrupted and the vacuum is broken. There are a whole lot of hurt egos and inflicted insecurities surfacing in this thread – a small taste of the hurt ego and inflicted insecurity that a lot of woman in tech have faced for years, at every level of their educational and professional development.
This thread is about men being upset about being the butt of "a joke." The joke is their own habit of making women the butt "of jokes." If men are upset by this, then it only legitimizes women's complaints.
No one said "all men of DN." No one even said "most men of DN." This is obvious to anyone with basic reading comprehension.
As someone who has been on Designer News from the beginning, just know that I love this site and all of you who come here and contribute.
I think this is great. :D
So Meta! (Serious note : Nice idea, Ian)
Thanks for this great project. (And also the ressources: https://www.designernews.co/comments/211224)
provocative speculations. every men sucks mens talk only football all men are same I hate men because they're douches design? screw it. I'm trying to generalise all men on every platform.
Nice work Ian Williams :)