34 comments

  • Ix TechauIx Techau, over 4 years ago

    Finally a female dev piece that isn't full of anecdotal conspiracy theories.

    26 points
    • Thompson GeorgeThompson George, over 4 years ago

      This

      6 points
    • joeri werfjoeri werf, over 4 years ago

      You mean finally a article that fits in your world view. So the dozens of articles of women describing their negative experiences are conspiracy theories, but an article that claims women in the tech sector aren't judged on their gender is completely valid?

      20 points
    • Mattan IngramMattan Ingram, over 4 years ago

      Funny how consistently women keep posting similar anecdotes. It must be some sort of conspiracy by them to trump up sexism, it couldn't be that they are having similar experiences or anything insane like that!

      Just because this woman does not describe negative experiences does not mean you can discount the enormous number of other experiences out there. This is not a clean issue with a clear-cut two sides to it, calling the personal experiences of others that really are not that wildly out there "conspiracy theories"demonstrates how unwilling you are to listen to views that don't fit into your preconceived notions.

      16 points
      • Shaun Webberly, over 4 years ago (edited over 4 years ago )

        Of course not. But I think it's safe to say that we're all sick of people who have become professional victims, where all they do is complain and reinforce each others' entitlement complexes in their "safe space" echo chambers. Nobody likes to be rabidly accused of and blamed for "atrocities" that they didn't commit or have their accomplishments belittled by "privileges" that they never actually had. But, alas, to these oh-so-progressive and definitely not sexist or racist groups, if you're a straight white male, you absolutely have committed atrocities and you absolutely have benefited from "white privilege".

        I can't think of a single mainstream movement that is more blatantly hypocritical and willfully unaware than that.

        There are two sides to this, but only one gets coverage in the media. Only one is socially acceptable to understand or endorse publicly. Try to have a real, meaningful dialogue on this, or dare introduce the super duper controversial idea that perhaps trying to fix one kind of discrimination by just introducing another kind of discrimination is a bad idea, and you'll be labeled a racist misogynist whom, according to the twittersphere, apparently doesn't have the right to a living anymore. And the cowardly corporations in their perpetual fear of being labeled as an organization that isn't "inclusive", "diverse", and "progressive" (and thus losing market share from one specific vocal minority), will fire you. They don't care about these issues, but they'll play to them to save face. And that conveniently is very self-satisfying to the people putting pressure on corporations and our society, reinforcing their behavior and telling them that it is acceptable, when it absolutely isn't.

        If we ever want to make any meaningful progress in race and sex discrimination, we have to stop being so radically positioned to one side or the other. What I just said here would have never come out of my mouth two years ago, but things have heated up so much lately that I almost feel a need to go radically to the other side to help balance things out. But this doesn't help either.

        We need to have real, open, rational dialogue about this without the threat of being labeled as a bigot that doesn't deserve a job just because you introduced a perspective that one group of people doesn't feel fully comfortable with or can't understand.

        We are not invoking real change in our world right now. We're just silencing people that we don't want to hear from. People we can't understand. But these people exist and their viewpoints are legitimate. This is why you see two radically opposed (and equally unqualified) presidential candidates winning in the US right now. Fear and censorship are not the ways of progress. The far right and the far left are equally absurd, selfish, bigoted, and ignorantly positioned in their views.

        This article, for once, was balanced. And that resonates with rational people. Sadly, in today's world, this kind of rational behavior is characterized as refreshing.

        12 points
        • John LeschinskiJohn Leschinski, over 4 years ago

          But I think it's safe to say that we're all sick of people who have become professional victims

          Not sure it's safe to say that at all. Seems to be a continually growing group.

          4 points
        • Thompson GeorgeThompson George, 4 years ago

          NAIL on the Head

          7 points
        • Thompson GeorgeThompson George, 4 years ago

          How is this comment only upvoted twice?!

          LOL

          5 points
        • Kyle ConradKyle Conrad, over 4 years ago

          Go back to reddit.

          4 points
        • Mattan IngramMattan Ingram, over 4 years ago (edited over 4 years ago )

          So an article that doesn't touch on any significant issues in the workplace and basically glosses over them is what resonates with you "rational" people? What balance was there in this article?

          Yes there is a degree of extremism in the world of social justice today. Yes there are a few professional victims and oversensitivity and prejudice against disagreement. Yes that gets on my nerves sometimes.

          Oh no! What ever will we do!? If you are so rational, you would easily ignore such things and actually have that discussion you so desperately want to have. You would realize the vast majority of people who care about social justice are not radical or extreme, and just don't make as big of a fuss therefore you don't hear about them.

          Remember that violence has been going down in America for decades, yet ask anyone who watches the news and they think it has gone up. You are falling for the same kind of misrepresentation of modern civil rights. Of course the stories of false victims and other such dramatic things are what you come across the most, it's what excites the most people, gets the most page views, and provides the most controversy. What it also does is convince you THAT is the problem and not the far greater social injustices that created such radicalism in the first place.

          Yes the far right and far left are absurd, selfish, and ignorant. SO WHAT? What is new about that? When has that ever been different?

          What do you feel is missing from the debate over this stuff? Is there not enough data? Do you simply not believe the stories people tell? Does the idea that the world you grew up in and enjoyed isn't as enjoyable for other people disturb you?

          Here I am. Someone 100% willing to have a calm and rational discussion about the topic. Sure I might be a white guy so I don't have the "insiders" view, but I am someone who cares about data more than emotions, about logic more than gut intuition, and research over preconceived notions.

          I'm gonna make a safe space for you here where you won't be bothered by the rabid SJWs at your door, so you can speak comfortably about a "balanced" view of this issue.

          Do you honestly, seriously, ACTUALLY think that being called a bigot by a tiny number of people is a larger issue than the injustices that exist in our society today? Are you that sensitive?

          1 point
      • Ix TechauIx Techau, over 4 years ago

        Maybe you see these types of articles a lot, but I don't. Could it be that you intentionally seek out these types of articles because you are convinced they are the truth? Your preconceived notions are making you see problems where there perhaps are none? Or are you proposing that you sit on the only truth, and because I don't share your opinion I must be naive and uneducated on the matter?

        I'm guessing by your name that you are not female...so you are really just listening to second-hand anecdotes and deciding that it is fact, when actually you don't really know what it's like to be a woman in tech.

        Well I do know what it's like, so perhaps you could learn something from someone who has actively decided not to take the shortcut through playing a victim and instead plays the game on the same terms as everyone else.

        Finally, the conspiracy I'm talking about is not referring to women making stories up. I'm sure there are plenty of people (not just women) who has had bad work experience, for a number of reasons. For example: my best friend is a short male, and he feels that gives him an unfair disadvantage to taller people. Who's to say he isn't correct? It's his truth after all.

        2 points
        • Mattan IngramMattan Ingram, over 4 years ago

          I have to balance your experience with those I hear from thousands of other women, some through articles, others through women I know personally.

          Considering the history of sexism, the statistical evidence, the fact that I trust these people who are not hysterical or sensitive or seeking to be a victim, I have to take what these people are saying seriously.

          Your friend probably does have an unfair disadvantage due to his height, what does that have to do with this? Did I say that men can't experience discrimination or prejudice? So just because not ALL bad work experiences are due to sexism, we can't focus on the large number of them that are?

          I think your take on this is far more telling of your preconceived notions than mine. I'm curious if you think there are any issues with racism (I'm assuming you aren't a minority) in the tech world or workplace?

          0 points
          • John LeschinskiJohn Leschinski, over 4 years ago

            Information will be biased towards those with negative experiences. Those with positive experiences generally do not write think pieces on how they don't have an issue. For every negative experience you read on Medium, there is a positive experience you'll never hear about.

            2 points
            • Mattan IngramMattan Ingram, over 4 years ago

              Right, because positive experiences are not something we are trying to change. It's not like each positive experience cancels out a negative one. Violence is going down in America (not that you would know looking at the news) but that doesn't mean we should stop focusing on eliminating the violence that remains.

              Sexism and racism in the workplace have improved ENORMOUSLY over the past century, that doesn't mean we can dismiss what still remains.

              0 points
              • John LeschinskiJohn Leschinski, over 4 years ago

                The hypocrisy. Positive experiences = not worth paying attention to. Negative experiences = systemic widespread issue.

                1 point
                • Mattan IngramMattan Ingram, over 4 years ago

                  Not trying to change != not worth paying attention to. I always advocate for more positive news to balance all the negative, both in tech and other areas of life.

                  Negative does not automatically equal systemic, but when you find such stories in the vast majority of companies and in the majority of people I speak to who aren't white guys, you begin to think MAAAYBBBEE this is more than just anecdotes.

                  1 point
          • Ix TechauIx Techau, over 4 years ago

            I think we both know you haven't heard or read thousands of other opinions on it, but perhaps more likely a few dozen. Well I have read and heard just as many talking about the other side of the coin, which makes this still anecdotal from both of us, and none of us has heard more than the other. I mean I totally understand why you would want to believe that there are more stories out there supporting your preconceived notions, but there are no facts supporting this claim.

            Speaking of facts, you claim statistical evidence...what statistical evidence would prove sexism in the tech industry? Tip: don't say wage gap.

            My friend's height is relevant to the discussion to point out that discrimination exists everywhere, all the time. I as a woman should not receive special treatment when it comes to discrimination just because I'm a woman. Discrimination is not ideal, but it is something we will never get rid of on a global scale. The only way to get rid of it is on a local scale.

            What I mean by that is that I as a woman can eradicate discrimination and prejudice in my work place quite easily, just by performing just as well as the other employees and never use the gender card for shortcuts.

            1 point
            • Mattan IngramMattan Ingram, over 4 years ago

              Where did anyone say women should get special treatment? I find this is a common misdirection by people who insist sexism and racism are magically over. What I am saying is that women should NOT get special treatment, particularly when that treatment is negative.

              I don't understand why you would think I want this to be true? I used to think like you did, that sexism and racism were mostly a thing of the past and could/should be ignored at this point. Enough shared experiences by a variety of women and minorities began to make me realize I couldn't dismiss all of them at once.

              Look, the sensitivity and instantly-offended nature of this conversation gets on my nerves too, and the amount of in-fighting it has created on the left is also frustrating. But despite those faults, you cannot say the issue is nonexistent.

              But the idea that these people are using the "Gender card" just to get ahead shows how little you are actually paying attention to their stories.

              0 points
              • Ix TechauIx Techau, 4 years ago

                I find it hilarious that you - a man - is trying to explain to me - a woman - that my experience in the tech industry is wrong, because you have heard enough anecdotes to support your agenda.

                1 point
                • Mattan IngramMattan Ingram, 4 years ago

                  Strawman. I did not say your experience is wrong, I'm saying it is one of a variety of experiences that you cannot simply ignore.

                  But way to put words in my mouth.

                  0 points
    • Andrew LiebchenAndrew Liebchen, over 4 years ago

      You're voting for Trump, aren't you?

      0 points
      • Ix TechauIx Techau, over 4 years ago

        This might come as a shock to you, but just because a person doesn't buy into the left-wing progressive PC social justice warrior agenda doesn't automatically mean they are a Trump supporter. So to answer your question: no I wouldn't vote for Trump if I was living in the US. But I support your decision to do so, if you wish. You live in a democracy after all.

        2 points
  • Thomas Michael SemmlerThomas Michael Semmler, over 4 years ago

    Your skills speak louder then your gender

    Loving this.

    21 points
    • Daniel GoldenDaniel Golden, over 4 years ago

      Your skills speak louder then your gender

      Edit: Your skills should speak louder than your gender

      The same applies to height, weight, race, etc. These things shouldn't matter, but they do. Even if only subconsciously.

      "In the U.S. population, about 14.5 percent of all men are six feet or over. Among CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, that number is 58 percent. Even more strikingly, in the general American population, 3.9 percent of adult men are 6’2″ or taller. Among my CEO sample, 30 percent were 6’2″ or taller."

      "Is this a deliberate prejudice? Of course not. No one ever says, dismissively, of a potential CEO candidate that ‘he’s too short.’ This is quite clearly the kind of unconscious prejudice that the IAT picks up. Most of us, in ways that we are not entirely aware of, automatically associate leadership ability with imposing physical stature. We have a sense, in our minds, of what a leader is supposed to look like, and that stereotype is so powerful that when someone fits it, we simply become blind to other considerations. And this isn’t confined to the corporate suite. Not long ago, researchers went back and analyzed the data from four large research studies, that had followed thousands of people from birth to adulthood, and calculated that when corrected for variables like age and gender and weight, an inch of height is worth $789 a year in salary. That means that a person who is six feet tall, but who is otherwise identical to someone who is five foot five, will make on average $5,525 more per year."

      An excerpt from Blink, by Malcom Gladwell.

      11 points
      • Shaun Webberly, over 4 years ago

        Oh, Malcolm Gladwell? The author from the definitely not politically motivated New York Times? The expert in selective data sampling? Well I guess that's the end of this discussion. I'll just pack up my things now...

        4 points
      • Thomas Michael SemmlerThomas Michael Semmler, over 4 years ago (edited over 4 years ago )

        Can't say I disagree. I am gay and do know very well, what it means to get treated differently sometimes violently. I am very fortunate to not have been discriminated in my professional environment, at least not that I know of. But, at some point you have to come out of the victim role, because it gives those people might over you, that put you there. So I decide not to let those facts determine my life but instead live mine as best as I can and teach the people around be as good as I can. If there is one thing that people should do in this discussion, it is to educate the newer generation and show that what differentiates you matters because it makes you yourself, but it is not crippling you to be different.

        I have said this very often and I will continue to do so: We as an industry and the people behind it have to be inclusive, not exclusive. You should not get a job because you are a man, you should also not get a job because you are a woman. You should get a job because you are the right person to do so. The job will not define what matters to you as a person and what not, and your gender, sexuality, spiritual beliefs, race or weight should not be a stepping stone.

        2 points
  • Mitch Malone, over 4 years ago

    For future reference, when you dismiss a personal story of racism, sexism, or violence as an "anecdote", you sound like an asshole.

    14 points
    • Ix TechauIx Techau, over 4 years ago

      For future reference, a personal story is an anecdote, and anyone claiming otherwise sounds like a fool.

      2 points
  • Katharina H., over 4 years ago

    Concerns every aspect of life. Including race, sexuality, appearance, personality, the size of your thumb. Those things don't matter AT ALL.

    5 points