68 comments

  • Zach ⑊, 4 years ago

    I'd say that given the DN demographics, it's within reason to imagine the admins would want test this idea on the majority, and then expand like they've already said they will.

    Could they have done uni-sex? Maybe, but come on it's a simple oversight. Just asking about it nicely is enough to address the topic.

    This passive-aggressive self-righteous is getting really old. Trying to tear down everything because it's not perfectly "politically correct" gets us nowhere.

    55 points
    • pjotr .pjotr ., 4 years ago

      Hey now! You can take that reason and logic out of here. This was clearly a ploy to discriminate against woman.

      31 points
    • Joshua JenkinsJoshua Jenkins, 4 years ago

      One way to improve DN's demographics might be to design for the desired demographic rather than the one it has.

      It looks like a simple oversight to you because it completely conforms to you. It probably looks less like a simple oversight to those that can't participate. In fact, it might even look like a signal that they shouldn't be here, which is worth taking issue with.

      31 points
      • Stuart McCoyStuart McCoy, 4 years ago

        Can't participate? Do men's shirts not function correctly when women wear them? Politely ask them to provide women's sizes and grow up already. If they refuse THEN go on the warpath, but let DN attempt to correct the problem first. You might be surprised, perhaps it truly is an oversight. Crazy, I know.

        11 points
        • Briana HokansonBriana Hokanson, 4 years ago

          Do men's shirts not function correctly when women wear them?

          Do women's t-shirts not function correctly when men wear them?

          4 points
    • Duncan RussellDuncan Russell, 4 years ago

      I don't see how missing women altogether is a "simple oversight" really.

      Many on DN just don't want our female members to feel second-class, or like an afterthought. They're equally important, regardless of who's the majority.

      20 points
    • Dustin Martin, 4 years ago

      Could they have done uni-sex? Maybe, but come on it's a simple oversight.

      That's exactly what they did do. Unisex shirts are men's shirts. The only difference is in how you decide to label them.

      6 points
    • Laurens SpangenbergLaurens Spangenberg, 4 years ago (edited 4 years ago )

      I completely agree. While there are issues we as designers should take action in, we should do so in a thoughtful, not reactionary, manner.

      Making a drama which divides designers into different sides as an attempt to bring awareness to this issue isn't exactly the definition of good design.

      We all make mistakes, even as we get better. There's only so much one can do to stop the subconscious biases we have. But we're all designers here. We're paid to think, to question, to dissect the things we see right in front of us.

      Just as you said, let's ask nicely. Let's correct the mistakes we make as a community, acknowledge the problem, and find ways to not repeat it.

      Let's not create peace trough war when it's absolutely unnecessary.

      Asking nicely and getting that issue resolved is way more effective than appealing to politics.

      7 points
    • James B, 4 years ago

      ...but it feels really good to be self-righteous. I love showing people on Twitter how virtuous I am. I am SUCH a good person.

      2 points
  • Daniel Eden, 4 years ago

    Just so we’re all clear and on the same page, the original and intended title of this post is:

    “Instead of buying a men’s shirt you’ll eventually throw out, put $30 here.”

    Thanks, DN mods, for pissing me off twice today!

    30 points
    • Michael AleoMichael Aleo, 4 years ago

      Serious question: do you honestly think this is a slap in the face to our female comrades, or just an honest case of releasing a single run of a single product to test sales before committing to purchasing hundreds or thousands of dollars in additional inventory?

      24 points
      • Daniel Eden, 4 years ago

        Serious, honest answer: I don’t know. I don’t suspect it was at all intentional, and I won’t pretend to know how women seeing the OP feel (though I could makeaneducatedguess). What I do know is that it’s easy to overlook something like this, but that it’s exactly these kinds of events and decisions that compound over time and cause systemic inequality.

        10 points
        • Mike Wilson, 4 years ago (edited 4 years ago )

          I know it sounds very sensational after the emotionally charged debates we've been having here lately, but here's the reality:

          1. DN is a free website that is open to anyone who wants to join.
          2. The vast majority of people who have decided to join DN are men.
          3. Therefore, mens size t-shirts will sell in vastly higher quantities than womens

          This is a simple case of a business selling a product to its customers.

          Systemic inequality is not some phrase to be thrown around lightly. Please read this article to understand what actual systemic inequality is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_inequality

          My local supermarket doesn't sell lamb testicles because less than 1% of the local population is Turkish and demand is low. Even though my Turkish grandpa would love if they did sell it, that is not systemic inequality against Turkish people. Economists refer to it as economics.

          21 points
          • Ed AdamsEd Adams, 4 years ago (edited almost 4 years ago )

            (Upon reflection I've decided to delete this.)

            7 points
            • Mike Wilson, 4 years ago

              An apologist for what? Supply and demand? Yes I am a supply and demand apologist.

              Toxic thought processes? So when any business decides to put less resources toward a product because it is low volume, they are being toxic?

              Discrimination against women in tech is a real problem. The marketing of branded T Shirts is not one of the causes of that problem, and is therefore ridiculous to spend time discussing.

              22 points
              • Connor Tomas O'BrienConnor Tomas O'Brien, 4 years ago

                Considering that this is a form of discrimination that is quick and easy to rectify, and directly makes women feel unwelcome within this community, how about we tackle this one first tho

                7 points
                • Ix TechauIx Techau, 4 years ago

                  Do you think I feel unwelcome because DN doesn't sell a t-shirt that is supposedly for women (e.g. fitted and made to be more "sexy")? Do you see a lot of women wearing t-shirts? I don't. It's not a common garment for women in general.

                  5 points
                  • Briana HokansonBriana Hokanson, 4 years ago

                    Do you see a lot of women wearing t-shirts? I don't. It's not a common garment for women in general.

                    Yes it is. What a strange (and false) observation.

                    1 point
          • Jim SilvermanJim Silverman, 4 years ago

            My local supermarket doesn't sell lamb testicles

            Designer News, everybody.

            18 points
            • Michael AleoMichael Aleo, 4 years ago

              How the fuck did this get to here?

              5 points
              • Nate vNate v, 4 years ago

                It was an analogy in a previous comment. It fits the conversation, except when it is taken out of context... as it was above.

                2 points
              • Mike Wilson, 4 years ago

                Funny how all these pro-diversity "champions of equality" are struggling to comprehend a mention of another culture's food traditions. A bit ironic, no?

                2 points
    • Nic TrentNic Trent, 4 years ago (edited 4 years ago )

      Dan, you come across either naive or inconsiderate to the people running DN here.

      As posed in a recent NPR episode when it comes to online shaming, "Do you care more about the idea, or about the human individual behind the incident?" Surely you could have handled the issue in a more professional manner.

      Stay PC bro.

      19 points
      • Terry OTerry O, 4 years ago

        But how else will he get his daily dose of internet white knight points?

        0 points
    • Ix TechauIx Techau, 4 years ago

      Yay, another man trying to fight my battles. I'm so lucky this knight in shining armour has decided to champion this cause for me. I'm just a woman, so my brain is obviously tiny, and I can't possibly save myself from oppression or inequality.

      12 points
  • Clay MacTavishClay MacTavish, 4 years ago (edited 4 years ago )

    Being a feminist is the hip, anti-bro du jour in the tech industry right now. #zeitgeist

    Care to explain the practical correlation between buying a tshirt and supporting women in tech?

    26 points
    • Jenni LederJenni Leder, 4 years ago (edited 4 years ago )

      https://twitter.com/_dte/status/651868049658638336

      Designer News is selling Designer News shirts only in Men's sizes.

      And I hope wanting equality stays "hip" personally.

      23 points
      • Max LindMax Lind, 4 years ago

        I can assure you, not only are shirts for females in the pipeline, but we've got plans for much-much more when it comes to the DN shop. In fact, I'm personally in charge of the project (just can't quite share the finer details :)

        But, by all means, feel free to send me any thoughts / ideas / feedback directly: max@designernews.co

        8 points
        • Daniel FoscoDaniel Fosco, 4 years ago

          If including women in the community for a step as simple as printing a t-shirt has to get in a “pipeline”, then we definitely have a problem in our industry — and, as has been made clear in past discussions about diversity, in Designer News as well.

          17 points
    • Daniel Eden, 4 years ago

      Canned/here’s-one-I-made-earlier response:

      Offering only men’s shirt sizes perpetuates (on varying levels of awareness/consciousness) the idea of this community—and the Design community at large—as one where men are at a higher natural advantage.

      This is punctuated further by the post’s language (“original, limited edition”), putting emphasis on the available privilege. A misstep by the DN community managers.

      20 points
      • Clay MacTavishClay MacTavish, 4 years ago (edited 4 years ago )

        pitchforks, man. you love em.

        25 points
        • Zach ⑊, 4 years ago

          Haha that's what I was thinking. I can just imagine this guy going "omg something I can use to show off how much of a feminist I am"

          16 points
        • Daniel EdenDaniel Eden, 4 years ago

          Not even close.

          What I love is informed, mature discussion of and concern with these issues. Sure, I’m snarky and a little fire-and-brimstone about it on Twitter, but I think it’s important to address issues like this, bring them to the attention of those running our communities, and try to scrutinize the aspects of our community and industry that have led to serious (if often unconscious) bias towards cis, hetero, white men (like lil' old me).

          16 points
          • Rens LeerkesRens Leerkes, 4 years ago

            Ironic that this is posted by a men and discussed by mainly men made me think of this post. http://thehardtimes.net/2015/07/27/this-is-an-all-inclusive-space-says-all-white-all-male-audience/

            Back on topic: I think the initiative is great, although stating that having only a men's shirts perpetuates the idea that men are at a higher natural advantage, goes a bit far. I think it has more to do with supply and demand.

            12 points
            • Duncan RussellDuncan Russell, 4 years ago

              Almost: the cause is supply and demand, the effect is perpetuating a male advantage. This then creates a closed loop that excludes non-males.

              3 points
            • Ed AdamsEd Adams, 4 years ago

              The "we're men, so we should stay out of feminism." argument is part of the reason why gender equality is still a problem.

              3 points
              • Ix TechauIx Techau, 4 years ago

                No, but as a woman I can tell you that men fighting for us women is a problem. We don't need you to save us from oppression. Your only role in the feminist cause is to not oppress women. We'll take care of the rest.

                5 points
            • Jake Lazaroff, 4 years ago

              The hope is that the more men in this male-dominated community push for inclusion, the more other genders will feel welcome :)

              0 points
      • erin e.erin e., 4 years ago

        Men's sized shirts are the least of my equality worries. I wish you'd have pointed out the merits of the program instead of some snarky quip.

        10 points
      • Matthew R. MillerMatthew R. Miller, 4 years ago

        This is punctuated further by the post’s language (“original, limited edition”), putting emphasis on the available privilege. A misstep by the DN community managers.

        I was with you until this.

        3 points
    • Andrew LiebchenAndrew Liebchen, 4 years ago

      Ugh, I wish I had enough karma to downvote you.

      16 points
    • Joshua JenkinsJoshua Jenkins, 4 years ago

      It's unfortunate that you're casting feminism as a choice between being hip or not. It's a framing that diverts attention from the real issue and towards whether or not it's perceived to be cool to care about other people.

      But, yeah, being feminist is definitely hipper than dismissing feminists.

      6 points
      • Tyler DeitzTyler Deitz, 4 years ago

        maybe calling someone a hipster when they stand for gender equality is the diversion

        0 points
  • Nic TrentNic Trent, 4 years ago

    Shaming for a cause.

    Bro.

    15 points
    • John PJohn P, 4 years ago

      Wherever would we be without white dudes on 6 figure salaries to show us the way.

      7 points
  • Alexis CreuzotAlexis Creuzot, 4 years ago

    Because you know, it's not at all patronizing to tell you what to do with YOUR money.

    14 points
  • Joe TurnerJoe Turner, 4 years ago

    Wasted 15 minutes reading all this. Pathetic, people create these problems.

    13 points
  • Casey ZumwaltCasey Zumwalt, 4 years ago

    +1

    8 points
  • Elena SchererElena Scherer, 4 years ago

    Wow, look at all these comments of men telling women how to feel.

    Great job making an inclusive community, commenters. Fortunately, I've got a thick enough skin that I'm still going to do what I do, but if you want an example of why women/minorities leave male-dominated fields, just take a look around.

    7 points
    • Nice ShoesNice Shoes, 4 years ago

      That's exactly what I was thinking as I scrolled down through the many many comments.

      Yes I see the irony of being another male commenter.

      0 points
    • Jared KrauseJared Krause, 4 years ago

      Agreed. Can't believe these pompous men are telling women they should be offended by t-shirts.

      0 points
  • Bruno MarinhoBruno Marinho, 4 years ago

    Based on this (https://www.designernews.co/stories/38965-a-challenge-to-all-dn-users) makes total sense for a company to do a product/test/anything else they want to do for the majority of their users.

    That doesn't mean that they don't want or would never do things for girls. It's a matter of focus and sometimes just doing without overthinking too much.

    6 points
  • Adam Hayman, 4 years ago

    Man, some people just love to complain...

    The majority of DN's audience is men. Therefore, they will see a higher ROI if they sell men's t-shirts. It's a pretty simple business decision, really. Not only that, but they've come out and said that they have plenty of products for women in the works. They simply released their anticipated highest selling one first. They aren't saying "women aren't welcome here" and no one in their right mind comes to that conclusion by seeing a list of t-shirt sizes.

    I'm all for gender equality too but getting upset over this is just stupid.

    5 points
  • Tim SmithTim Smith, 4 years ago

    I completely and whole-heartedly agree with you, Dan. Thank you for bringing attention to this.

    5 points
  • Connor Tomas O'BrienConnor Tomas O'Brien, 4 years ago

    This offers a good rundown on how and why offering male-only t-shirts implicitly signals that women aren't welcome within a community. To those who don't think this is an issue, keep in mind that it doesn't seem that way because you may never have had to think about it: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/T-shirts

    5 points
  • Corin EdwardsCorin Edwards, 4 years ago

    a dick move...

    Geez...

    5 points
  • Ricardo NunesRicardo Nunes, 4 years ago

    If you're so outrageous about the lack of equality on the t-shirts, why should I donate to such a sexist website? Isn't it simpler to donate to DN if you don't want a t-shirt?

    4 points
  • James B, 4 years ago

    So I sort of acknowledge that there are not enough women in tech. I would dispute the commonly cited reasons for why that is though.

    But by god, the amount of attention this issue gets on the internets is way out of proportion. People are dying crossing waters to get a way from freaking warzones, Russia is bombing the shit of innocent people, and do we hear a peep about ANY of this on Twitter/HN/DN/Reddit. NO and it is a fucking disgrace. So I will no donate to Girls who code. I will send my money to Syria and make sure my money goes to the real downtrodden.

    Next time, a middle-class Oxford-educated white girl tells me how she is oppressed, I'm seriously going to pull my freaking hair out.

    4 points
  • Charlie Tizard, 4 years ago

    Great idea Dan. :)

    3 points
  • Eric PanEric Pan, 4 years ago

    Post headline on point

    3 points
  • Craig FrostCraig Frost, 4 years ago

    One of the most worthwhile posts I've seen here. A shame that it's been dismissed by some of those in the community, but terrific that it brought attention to the fact and inspired action.

    3 points
  • Christopher JamesChristopher James, 4 years ago

    Serious question: are there any boys-who-code nonprofits I can donate to instead?

    2 points
  • Terry OTerry O, 4 years ago

    What a weird post... what are you trying to do, shame people for someone else's inadvertent act of exclusion, almost certainly before you've spoken to the people who are supposedly at fault here.

    I'm a big fan of you Dan, but your self-righteous hunger for back-pats is saddening. Don't passively lecture people on how to think/what they should care about.

    2 points
  • David KlawitterDavid Klawitter, 4 years ago

    Oh to be DN's treasurer right now.

    0 points
  • moodthy al-ghorairi, 4 years ago

    So, apparently I'm a man? Coolio.

    0 points