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Within 2018 — A leadership retreat for women in design (gowithin.co)
over 5 years ago from Max Lind, sometimes Maxwell
71 comments
Sean Schraeder, over 5 years ago
Curious how diversity and empowerment lead to so many exclusionary events.
Christina N, over 5 years ago
Try not to mentally frame it as excluding others; rather, see it as people of a demographic trying to support each other. For example, you don't invite those who have never been addicted to speak at AA / NA meetings, because they can't empathize with the struggles that the addicts went through. You want to be empowered by those who have gone through the similar experiences and overcame adversity.
Let's try not to mentally frame anything, as many would call that rationalization. Instead let us look at the objective truth of the matter.
It seems only certain groups are allowed to create these types of events, or 'support groups' as you allude to. If white males were to organize an event for themselves it would be denounced and those who participated vilified. That to me reaks of a double standard.
Alec Lomas, over 5 years ago
If white males were to organize an event for themselves
so like 80% of all tech conferences
Interesting! Can you share one where only white males, or any race males were allowed to attend? I'll wait...
White men don't need these rulesets because they usually comprise of the majority at any of these tech conferences regardless. You've missed their point. Are you done being offended yet?
Offended? Standing up for justice and even application of logic is being offended? Tragic this is what passes for discourse in 2017.
Says the person that immediately brought his race into the discussion and call others who oppose him hypocritical and short-sighted. Tragic indeed
Addressing the incorrect assumption of my race is bringing my race into it? Ok lady (hope that term isn't offensive).
You injected race into it when the discussion wasn't a matter of it. Scroll up if you've forgotten already.
Affinity group shminity group. Stop taking life so literally, you are missing the point ;)
Aaron Wears Many Hats, over 5 years ago
This seems like a strawman to pull out - the race argument is a reasonable construct to mention in the context of this argument.
Not to take sides, but I feel this whole thread fell off the rails because of both of you equally.
Sacha Greif, over 5 years ago
I think this is a common fallacy. Even application of logic between two groups does not equal justice if one of the groups has been disadvantaged before.
I like the example of a race between two contestants where one of them just got their leg broken with a baseball bat. Even with perfectly fair rules during the race itself, no one would call it "fair".
I hope that explains why "women only" and "white men only" events are not quite the same thing. In one case the goal is to help a traditionally disadvantaged group, in the other the goal is to preserve the advantages of a traditionally powerful group.
Which conference's slogan or agenda is "preserve the advantages of a traditionally powerful group". Your statement oozes logical fallicy.
I'm trying to explain why a hypothetical white-men-only event would not be the same thing. Even with the best intentions in the world, they would de facto be giving an unfair advantage (being able to attend the event) to a group that doesn't need it, thus reinforcing existing imbalances.
So handicap the advantaged or bar them from congregating, however you want to put it to balance the scales a bit, let other groups 'catch up'. Can't beat 2017 social justice logic!
Yep that's exactly it, glad you got it! :)
Affirmative Action 2.0! Neither novel or just ;)
Christian Bundy, over 5 years ago
You're missing the point, although I'm unclear on whether it's intentional.
Let me spell it out for you as clearly as possible: if you're like me, you benefit from all sorts of systemic discrimination whether you like it or not. If you want to get rid of said-discrimination, you need to take action against it. This isn't meant to hurt your feelings, but this really isn't about you. Here are your options:
- If you believe that people face discrimination, help them liberate themselves (or at least stay out of their way).
- If you believe that people don't face discrimination, read a book. Literally any book.
I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.
You are missing the point; and those are YOU'RE options. You are responding to one of my options right now; not accept this groupthink drivel. Happy to keep responding, no questions for you, thanks!
Todd Sieling, over 5 years ago
"your" would be the possessive form you're looking for. Accuracy in a debate is important, logically.
And you know a debate is truly over when one party is left resorting to grammar retorts. Grasping at straws, are you (yoda voice).
I thought it was over with the name calling, but call it where you see it. I'm poking fun at you because despite your huff-and-puff as the only rational actor in the room, you're human and make mistakes. As for grasping at straws, it's 5:30 on a Friday and god help me I'm reading your comments on Designer News rather than slipping into an end of week whiskey with my friends; I'll grasp at what I can take.
Maybe take a break from the keyboard. When things cool down try to wonder why so many people took issue with your points (and how you stated them). Even if you wind up not agreeing, at least you'd put the effort into understanding rather than dismissing with a worn-in conclusion that you came here to grieve over.
Life evolves past high school popularity contests; didn’t get the memo? And besides, looking at the upvotes I’m pleasantly surprised by the show of support. Not surprised others don’t want to deal with the mindless horde like I have.
I will never tire of standing up for logic and virtue. Enjoy your whiskey, I’m headed to my friends studio to unwind too. Let me know if you need any more clarity during your journey of self loathing.
Good thing you got an edit in on that 'retorts', right? ;)
Meh, touchscreens don’t work great in the shower but I wanted to keep you focused on more than minutiae ;)
It is not rationalizing.
What do white males need support in regards to when they are the majority in mostly any given context?
Women need it for various things. One topical example would be sexual harassment in Silicon Valley. Another could be dealing with biases when you're a woman in STEM.
Minorities need it for various things. My work has a black guild since black people only comprise of less than 5% of the company. They need to support and encourage each other. This obviously is a microcosm of the greater systemic racial issues.
That isn't to say that there aren't men-only groups -- don't lie to yourself that these groups don't exist. Men who are victims of domestic abuse, for example, can certainly have a group and support each other.
And white men, in particular, need support for...?
Yikes! To assume every single person on earth doesnt need support and could benefit from sharing stories and experiences from their affinity groups shows just how hypocritical and short sighted you really are. Thanks for showing your true colors.
First of all, you're putting words into my mouth. And, seriously, tell me what white men, as a collective whole, could use support for. As I said with my domestic abuse example, men can certainly band together to support each other. What do white men need support of? Please don't personally attack me, you're being quite defensive.
"First of all" I'm a minority so this isn't about me specifically but thanks for assuming my race/gender/whatever offends you/them/they.
I'm not attacking anyone, I pointed out your flawed logic. I also can't speak for every white male as that would be very presumptious of me; something you seem to have no problem doing all on your own... making assumptions.
You asking that same question over and over shows a lack of empathy or respect for the topic. Sorry you have such a bigoted view on the matter. Irony at it's worst/finest (however you choose to look at it)
If anything, YOU are the one who seems defensive/triggered. Try not to mentally frame it as me being offended, and more me being perplexed by the double standard / lack of empathy.
Jim Silverman, over 5 years ago
YOU are the one who seems defensive/triggered
says the dude scrawling frantic rants on a designers' forum about how sad he is to not be invited to a women's retreat.
Winner for most childish comment on this entire thread goes to... Jim Silverman!
I'm not making any presumptions, because I am literally asking for you to tell me what white men, as a demographic, need support for. You keep on telling me I'm being short-sighted and bigoted when you can't even bother answering it for me? Seems unfair.
Let me give you some examples. Do white men need support for: • Feeling antagonized by minorities in their daily life? • Feeling like they're losing their power as a majority? • Feeling that affirmative action is reverse racism?
It's super easy to answer this. I think you'd get a lot more people on your side if you avoided hurling insults in lieu of actual answers.
It's not my place to assume, and it's culturally unacceptable to find out because it doesn't fit the narrative. You seem to find a lot of things unfair, you should go talk with other women about it because as a male myself, I will never truly understand your plight/struggles anyway, right??
Account deleted over 5 years ago Please stop embarrassing yourself.
More newspeak from the liberal moral mafia. "Creepy" "Deplorable" anyone who doesn't agree with the narrative is "embarrasing themselves". Grow up Todd Cantly and discuss the merits of the topic or keep the childish bro comments to yourself.
Account deleted over 5 years ago *Cantley
Also, how is this a childish bro comment?
If you have to ask, you can't afford it.
R Z, over 5 years ago What do you need support in as a white male in the US? In what area are you the minority, not being represented enough or are being suppressed? If there's something you can think of then please share.
I've been to Tech and Design conferences and it's male dominated environment. Have you gone to one? Do you feel suppressed in a Tech conference? Do you feel you don't have enough male role models to represent you in those events?
I don't view people based on their skin or gender, it's pretty sad that you do. I wouldn't seek out a mentor based on them being exactly the same as me, I'd find that rather unproductive / not illuminating.
R Z, over 5 years ago It's about finding a community to belong to and having shared experiences. You can say whatever you want but the conference is happening so keep whining and attacking people so you can feel erect about your existence.
Expressing concern for the values of a community is "whining and attacking" now. Grow up, R Z.
Ultimately stuff like this is divisive, you all are too caught up in emotion to realize it.
Holy shit, everyone, we've found him: the one man on earth who is colorblind and free of implicit biases. Put him on the hiring committee of every company, we need to learn from this guy
Full on tempur tantrum mode from Christina. Step away from the keyboard before it melts lol.
Joel Califa, over 5 years ago
Sean, Christina has given you reasons for women-only events. She's also given you every chance to answer a really simple question, and you haven't done it. Maybe take a moment to answer why white men need to be able to organize exclusionary events as well?
I have answered the question several times. It would be presumtious for me to assume the struggles and needs of an affinity group I don't belong too - seems like that logic would make sense to a person so adament on defending the well being of other affinity groups such as yourself.
So let me get this straight. There is a positive event for women. You are not a white man and you don't know why they would need their own conference, but for some reason felt it was important for you to tear this event down throughout this thread because of some abstract principle?
And you still don't think women need their own events?
Account deleted over 5 years ago Wow, there is something for women in IT and dudes flip their shit over it. So pathetic.
"Flip their shit" meaning states a differing opinion while dealing with an onslaught of trendy groupthink? Get real and stop being so dramatic. No ambulances, no strokes, just people having a passionate debate. Wow!
Account deleted over 5 years ago No, this is not a passionate debate. One guy is flipping his shit because the theme of this thread is women in IT. That is a painful spot for insecure males and you are a schoolbook example of that.
Insecure males go along with this trendy bullshit. It's hypocricy at it's finest. Affirmative Action for millenials. Stop projecting.
Account deleted over 5 years ago I'm not insecure in the slightest and I can see there is a need for conferences like this. Just because you can't, doesn't mean there isn't.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion! And my intent was never to be diametrically opposed to this event or others like it, just offering a different, very unpopular perspective that events like this are exclusionary and divisive. Unpopular I can live with, how offensive it's been recieved is perplexing!
Account deleted over 5 years ago That's cool. Next time you should try and frame your opinion in a much less condescending and aggressive way and you'll probably be taken seriously.
Maybe you should practice what you preach, Todd. No one takes a hypocrite seriously ;)
Account deleted over 5 years ago I wasn't being condescending at all, just explaining. Seems like you're projecting your issues on to me. Have a good day.
Neither was I, and I already used that line elsewhere. I'm almost flattered.
Account deleted over 5 years ago Telling people they are having temper tantrums when they clearly aren’t is condescending.
I'd go through the effort of taking your childish comments out of context but they come off putrid enough where they sit.
Account deleted over 5 years ago How is it out of context? We were talking about your behaviour being condescending and I gave one example. Based of this thread alone I could give plenty more.
Insecure is being worried about the gender ratio at tech events! lol
Denis Rojcyk, over 5 years ago
I don't really know what this guy is all about. His rhetoric is simply too aggressive for a nice event like this. And I think it is great to have such a retreat, it will be an amazing experience.
But I do understand where his frustration is coming from. If there was a "retreat for dudes in design" event. There would be such a huge backlash that the event would have to be canceled immediately or made more open.
But it doesn't excuse his language or aggressive tone.
Account deleted over 5 years ago Yes, because it would be emphasizing male power even more. It is the same reason we don't see straight parades... People that can't understand this, live in a wonderful bubble of privilege.
Joshua Turner, over 5 years ago
Well this is a lovely conversation.
Bringing it back around to design though, I do have an issue with the contrast on a few of the call out sections, as seen here:
With a contrast ratio of 1.1, it fails every accessibility standard.
Raffaello Sanzio, over 5 years ago
The whole site has terrible accessibility:
- Lack of focus style (Good luck navigating with a keyboard)
- Meaningless alt text for images (eg. “karsten-wurth-inf1783-104731.jpg”)
- The headings are a mess (eg. The copyright text is an h2)
And more violations that aXe found (19 in total).
Unfortunately, that‘s the state of modern web design. Glitz over Usability.
John P, over 5 years ago
Can't believe you both thought this was the time and place to mansplain about that.
Cory Malnarick, over 5 years ago
as a person who can use everything without the need for assistance, and who isn't as seasoned in the industry as others, I often forget about keeping my designs accessible.
I thought their callouts to that were great – it reminded me to keep that in mind.
It wasn't a man trying to gut punch a woman thing in any way they could; it's a designer helping the industry get better.
Granted, I'm a white dude; maybe any criticism at all is harmful for the advancement of better diversity in the industry. To that, I just don't know. But I'm a superfan of retreats like these.
David Simpson, over 5 years ago
I think this is great (white male here), primarily for the reason that it will promote discussion, education, and growth at all career levels for the women who attend. This isn't some middle school summer camp where they are going up a mountain to stay in cabins and bash boys. They also aren't attacking or dismissing other events that are attended by all, this is simply a chance for a group of women to get together to learn and grow. I will also say that I do believe it is really important that we see the numbers rise at big conferences not just in gender, but in all aspects of diversity.
The only potential bummer as some have mentioned is that it could be quite cost-prohibitive. However, with the sponsors, maybe the high cost has been somewhat neutralized. And if they see success maybe over time they could do them regionally to find cost measures that make it more accessible to all.
deleted account, over 5 years ago Wow, that sounds amazing! Wish it mentioned something about the pricing though, it seems like it might price some out :(
Account deleted over 5 years ago I would say more than some. I immediately know I won't be there.
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