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Instead of buying a men’s shirt you’ll eventually throw out, put $30 here (girlswhocode.com)
over 7 years ago from Daniel Eden, Product Designer at Facebook
66 comments
Zach ⑊, over 7 years ago I'd say that given the DN demographics, it's within reason to imagine the admins would want test this idea on the majority, and then expand like they've already said they will.
Could they have done uni-sex? Maybe, but come on it's a simple oversight. Just asking about it nicely is enough to address the topic.
This passive-aggressive self-righteous is getting really old. Trying to tear down everything because it's not perfectly "politically correct" gets us nowhere.
pjotr ., over 7 years ago
Hey now! You can take that reason and logic out of here. This was clearly a ploy to discriminate against woman.
Joshua Jenkins, over 7 years ago
One way to improve DN's demographics might be to design for the desired demographic rather than the one it has.
It looks like a simple oversight to you because it completely conforms to you. It probably looks less like a simple oversight to those that can't participate. In fact, it might even look like a signal that they shouldn't be here, which is worth taking issue with.
Stuart McCoy, over 7 years ago
Can't participate? Do men's shirts not function correctly when women wear them? Politely ask them to provide women's sizes and grow up already. If they refuse THEN go on the warpath, but let DN attempt to correct the problem first. You might be surprised, perhaps it truly is an oversight. Crazy, I know.
Briana Hokanson, over 7 years ago
Do men's shirts not function correctly when women wear them?
Do women's t-shirts not function correctly when men wear them?
Dustin Martin, over 7 years ago Could they have done uni-sex? Maybe, but come on it's a simple oversight.
That's exactly what they did do. Unisex shirts are men's shirts. The only difference is in how you decide to label them.
Laurens Spangenberg, over 7 years ago (edited over 7 years ago )
I completely agree. While there are issues we as designers should take action in, we should do so in a thoughtful, not reactionary, manner.
Making a drama which divides designers into different sides as an attempt to bring awareness to this issue isn't exactly the definition of good design.
We all make mistakes, even as we get better. There's only so much one can do to stop the subconscious biases we have. But we're all designers here. We're paid to think, to question, to dissect the things we see right in front of us.
Just as you said, let's ask nicely. Let's correct the mistakes we make as a community, acknowledge the problem, and find ways to not repeat it.
Let's not create peace trough war when it's absolutely unnecessary.
Asking nicely and getting that issue resolved is way more effective than appealing to politics.
James B, over 7 years ago ...but it feels really good to be self-righteous. I love showing people on Twitter how virtuous I am. I am SUCH a good person.
Daniel Eden, over 7 years ago
Just so we’re all clear and on the same page, the original and intended title of this post is:
“Instead of buying a men’s shirt you’ll eventually throw out, put $30 here.”
Thanks, DN mods, for pissing me off twice today!
Michael Aleo, over 7 years ago
Serious question: do you honestly think this is a slap in the face to our female comrades, or just an honest case of releasing a single run of a single product to test sales before committing to purchasing hundreds or thousands of dollars in additional inventory?
Serious, honest answer: I don’t know. I don’t suspect it was at all intentional, and I won’t pretend to know how women seeing the OP feel (though I could makeaneducatedguess). What I do know is that it’s easy to overlook something like this, but that it’s exactly these kinds of events and decisions that compound over time and cause systemic inequality.
Mike Wilson, over 7 years ago (edited over 7 years ago ) I know it sounds very sensational after the emotionally charged debates we've been having here lately, but here's the reality:
- DN is a free website that is open to anyone who wants to join.
- The vast majority of people who have decided to join DN are men.
- Therefore, mens size t-shirts will sell in vastly higher quantities than womens
This is a simple case of a business selling a product to its customers.
Systemic inequality is not some phrase to be thrown around lightly. Please read this article to understand what actual systemic inequality is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structural_inequality
My local supermarket doesn't sell lamb testicles because less than 1% of the local population is Turkish and demand is low. Even though my Turkish grandpa would love if they did sell it, that is not systemic inequality against Turkish people. Economists refer to it as economics.
Ed Adams, over 7 years ago (edited over 7 years ago )
(Upon reflection I've decided to delete this.)
Mike Wilson, over 7 years ago An apologist for what? Supply and demand? Yes I am a supply and demand apologist.
Toxic thought processes? So when any business decides to put less resources toward a product because it is low volume, they are being toxic?
Discrimination against women in tech is a real problem. The marketing of branded T Shirts is not one of the causes of that problem, and is therefore ridiculous to spend time discussing.
Connor Tomas O'Brien, over 7 years ago
Considering that this is a form of discrimination that is quick and easy to rectify, and directly makes women feel unwelcome within this community, how about we tackle this one first tho
Ix Techau, over 7 years ago
Do you think I feel unwelcome because DN doesn't sell a t-shirt that is supposedly for women (e.g. fitted and made to be more "sexy")? Do you see a lot of women wearing t-shirts? I don't. It's not a common garment for women in general.
Do you see a lot of women wearing t-shirts? I don't. It's not a common garment for women in general.
Yes it is. What a strange (and false) observation.
No it's not. What a strange (and false) observation.
Jim Silverman, over 7 years ago
My local supermarket doesn't sell lamb testicles
Designer News, everybody.
How the fuck did this get to here?
Nate v, over 7 years ago
It was an analogy in a previous comment. It fits the conversation, except when it is taken out of context... as it was above.
Mike Wilson, over 7 years ago Funny how all these pro-diversity "champions of equality" are struggling to comprehend a mention of another culture's food traditions. A bit ironic, no?
I was just scanning and caught "lamb testicles".
Mike Wilson, over 7 years ago ahhh ok i understand...haha
Nic Trent, over 7 years ago (edited over 7 years ago )
Dan, you come across either naive or inconsiderate to the people running DN here.
As posed in a recent NPR episode when it comes to online shaming, "Do you care more about the idea, or about the human individual behind the incident?" Surely you could have handled the issue in a more professional manner.
Stay PC bro.
Terry O, over 7 years ago
But how else will he get his daily dose of internet white knight points?
Yay, another man trying to fight my battles. I'm so lucky this knight in shining armour has decided to champion this cause for me. I'm just a woman, so my brain is obviously tiny, and I can't possibly save myself from oppression or inequality.
Clay MacTavish, over 7 years ago (edited over 7 years ago )
Being a feminist is the hip, anti-bro du jour in the tech industry right now. #zeitgeist
Care to explain the practical correlation between buying a tshirt and supporting women in tech?
Jenni Leder, over 7 years ago (edited over 7 years ago )
https://twitter.com/_dte/status/651868049658638336
Designer News is selling Designer News shirts only in Men's sizes.
And I hope wanting equality stays "hip" personally.
Max Lind, over 7 years ago
I can assure you, not only are shirts for females in the pipeline, but we've got plans for much-much more when it comes to the DN shop. In fact, I'm personally in charge of the project (just can't quite share the finer details :)
But, by all means, feel free to send me any thoughts / ideas / feedback directly: max@designernews.co
Daniel Fosco, over 7 years ago
If including women in the community for a step as simple as printing a t-shirt has to get in a “pipeline”, then we definitely have a problem in our industry — and, as has been made clear in past discussions about diversity, in Designer News as well.
Canned/here’s-one-I-made-earlier response:
Offering only men’s shirt sizes perpetuates (on varying levels of awareness/consciousness) the idea of this community—and the Design community at large—as one where men are at a higher natural advantage.
This is punctuated further by the post’s language (“original, limited edition”), putting emphasis on the available privilege. A misstep by the DN community managers.
pitchforks, man. you love em.
Zach ⑊, over 7 years ago Haha that's what I was thinking. I can just imagine this guy going "omg something I can use to show off how much of a feminist I am"
Not even close.
What I love is informed, mature discussion of and concern with these issues. Sure, I’m snarky and a little fire-and-brimstone about it on Twitter, but I think it’s important to address issues like this, bring them to the attention of those running our communities, and try to scrutinize the aspects of our community and industry that have led to serious (if often unconscious) bias towards cis, hetero, white men (like lil' old me).
Rens Leerkes, over 7 years ago
Ironic that this is posted by a men and discussed by mainly men made me think of this post. http://thehardtimes.net/2015/07/27/this-is-an-all-inclusive-space-says-all-white-all-male-audience/
Back on topic: I think the initiative is great, although stating that having only a men's shirts perpetuates the idea that men are at a higher natural advantage, goes a bit far. I think it has more to do with supply and demand.
The "we're men, so we should stay out of feminism." argument is part of the reason why gender equality is still a problem.
No, but as a woman I can tell you that men fighting for us women is a problem. We don't need you to save us from oppression. Your only role in the feminist cause is to not oppress women. We'll take care of the rest.
Jake Lazaroff, over 7 years ago The hope is that the more men in this male-dominated community push for inclusion, the more other genders will feel welcome :)
erin e., over 7 years ago
Men's sized shirts are the least of my equality worries. I wish you'd have pointed out the merits of the program instead of some snarky quip.
Matthew R. Miller, over 7 years ago
This is punctuated further by the post’s language (“original, limited edition”), putting emphasis on the available privilege. A misstep by the DN community managers.
I was with you until this.
Andrew Liebchen, over 7 years ago
Ugh, I wish I had enough karma to downvote you.
It's unfortunate that you're casting feminism as a choice between being hip or not. It's a framing that diverts attention from the real issue and towards whether or not it's perceived to be cool to care about other people.
But, yeah, being feminist is definitely hipper than dismissing feminists.
Tyler Deitz, over 7 years ago
maybe calling someone a hipster when they stand for gender equality is the diversion
Shaming for a cause.
Bro.
John P, over 7 years ago
Wherever would we be without white dudes on 6 figure salaries to show us the way.
Alexis Creuzot, over 7 years ago
Because you know, it's not at all patronizing to tell you what to do with YOUR money.
Joe Turner, over 7 years ago
Wasted 15 minutes reading all this. Pathetic, people create these problems.
Elena Scherer, over 7 years ago
Wow, look at all these comments of men telling women how to feel.
Great job making an inclusive community, commenters. Fortunately, I've got a thick enough skin that I'm still going to do what I do, but if you want an example of why women/minorities leave male-dominated fields, just take a look around.
Nice Shoes, over 7 years ago
That's exactly what I was thinking as I scrolled down through the many many comments.
Yes I see the irony of being another male commenter.
Jared Krause, over 7 years ago
Agreed. Can't believe these pompous men are telling women they should be offended by t-shirts.
Bruno Marinho, over 7 years ago
Based on this (https://www.designernews.co/stories/38965-a-challenge-to-all-dn-users) makes total sense for a company to do a product/test/anything else they want to do for the majority of their users.
That doesn't mean that they don't want or would never do things for girls. It's a matter of focus and sometimes just doing without overthinking too much.
This offers a good rundown on how and why offering male-only t-shirts implicitly signals that women aren't welcome within a community. To those who don't think this is an issue, keep in mind that it doesn't seem that way because you may never have had to think about it: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/T-shirts
Corin Edwards, over 7 years ago
Geez...
Tim Smith, over 7 years ago
I completely and whole-heartedly agree with you, Dan. Thank you for bringing attention to this.
Adam Hayman, over 7 years ago Man, some people just love to complain...
The majority of DN's audience is men. Therefore, they will see a higher ROI if they sell men's t-shirts. It's a pretty simple business decision, really. Not only that, but they've come out and said that they have plenty of products for women in the works. They simply released their anticipated highest selling one first. They aren't saying "women aren't welcome here" and no one in their right mind comes to that conclusion by seeing a list of t-shirt sizes.
I'm all for gender equality too but getting upset over this is just stupid.
James B, over 7 years ago So I sort of acknowledge that there are not enough women in tech. I would dispute the commonly cited reasons for why that is though.
But by god, the amount of attention this issue gets on the internets is way out of proportion. People are dying crossing waters to get a way from freaking warzones, Russia is bombing the shit of innocent people, and do we hear a peep about ANY of this on Twitter/HN/DN/Reddit. NO and it is a fucking disgrace. So I will no donate to Girls who code. I will send my money to Syria and make sure my money goes to the real downtrodden.
Next time, a middle-class Oxford-educated white girl tells me how she is oppressed, I'm seriously going to pull my freaking hair out.
Ricardo Nunes, over 7 years ago
If you're so outrageous about the lack of equality on the t-shirts, why should I donate to such a sexist website? Isn't it simpler to donate to DN if you don't want a t-shirt?
Craig Frost, over 7 years ago
One of the most worthwhile posts I've seen here. A shame that it's been dismissed by some of those in the community, but terrific that it brought attention to the fact and inspired action.
Eric Pan, over 7 years ago
Post headline on point
Charlie Tizard, over 7 years ago Great idea Dan. :)
What a weird post... what are you trying to do, shame people for someone else's inadvertent act of exclusion, almost certainly before you've spoken to the people who are supposedly at fault here.
I'm a big fan of you Dan, but your self-righteous hunger for back-pats is saddening. Don't passively lecture people on how to think/what they should care about.
Christopher James, over 7 years ago
Serious question: are there any boys-who-code nonprofits I can donate to instead?
moodthy al-ghorairi, over 7 years ago So, apparently I'm a man? Coolio.
David Klawitter, over 7 years ago
Oh to be DN's treasurer right now.
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